RA*Chat Ep 109: Through the Lens: Reflecting on College and the Power of Community

Crystal Lay:
Welcome back to Roompact’s ResEdChat Podcast. Today is a special RA Chat edition where we talk about issues of importance to RAs and student staff members in housing and residence life. I’m your host, Crystal Lay, and I use a she/her series pronouns. There’s something special about reconnecting with a college friend, especially to talk about community and connection. My guest today has built an incredible career in sports photography, but before that, they were navigating living on campus, friendships and the balance of academics and athletics. We’ll reflect on lessons learned, missed opportunities in how college has shaped their journey. So, we’re going to dive in today. I’ll start off by having our guest introduce himself.

Justin Kosman:
Good to see you again, Crystal. I’m a commercial photographer now. I live in San Diego and we kind of reconnected on LinkedIn recently and yeah, it’s great to see you again.

Crystal Lay:
Yeah, it’s funny how time goes by, you blink and I won’t say how many years it’s been, but I’m really glad that we were able to connect and do this conversation together. What I really appreciated, and while we’re talking today is you share some pieces about that reflecting back what it could have felt like or looked like if you were able to differently engage during your time, and I thought that would be really salient for our folks listening in. So, my first question for you, Justin, so looking back, what’s one aspect of your college experience that you wish you had embraced more fully? How do you think it would’ve impacted your personal and professional growth?

Justin Kosman:
Freshman year I roomed with a guy from high school, so I knew him already and I regret doing that because I did it again my sophomore year and then junior year I roomed with an RA and he was a friend of mine from freshman year that I met at school, and it was less baggage. It was like not only was I not taking my personality or any of my high school memories or nuances with me, but I just got to meet a new person and he became a really good friend. And the two guys I roomed with freshman and sophomore year, I don’t even talk to anymore.
Being an artist and competing in sort of more individualized sports, I had a tendency to just do everything solo or do things myself. So, I didn’t go to college wanting to meet a bunch of people. I was like, okay, I’m going to go to college and I’m going to be a swimmer. I’m going to do all this stuff. And it was all me, me, me. And then you grow up and realize I can’t do anything significant without working with a team of people and being a contributor. You can be a leader, but you have to also be a reciprocal part of a group. And I didn’t really learn that and experience that until junior and senior year. And I feel like freshman and sophomore year I just missed a lot of opportunities to not only meet new people, but really step outside of my comfort zone, I would say.

Crystal Lay:
Wow. And I didn’t know you lived with an RA junior year. I’ll have a question about that later on because I think that’s pretty cool. So, you talked a little bit about living with a friend your first and second year. How do you think living with strangers or a more diverse living situation might’ve shaped your college journey? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Justin Kosman:
Yeah. I think you just aren’t put in many situations where you have to live with a stranger. You don’t really have to do it after college if you can afford to live by yourself, but I think it’s an extreme version of working with someone at a job that you have to see every day. At a job you can kind of leave them. But I think it’s, at the very least, you get to meet someone who could potentially give you a new perspective on life, but also give you practice on learning things from someone else who has a totally different viewpoint than you do. And I think the earlier you experience that, the better because it’s coming no matter what. And both of you, like in a professional setting, both of you may have the same goal, but you’re going to have different ideas on how to get there or what are the important things about that goal.
And if you just live in your own silo with your own experiences, you’re going to be very limited in how you can help or work with other people, I think. So, yeah, it was very easy to do that, because it was just like, okay, I’m going to avoid all these new experiences, I’ll just avoid them. That’s kind of what I was doing. I kind of took my goals from adolescence and kind of carried them through college and realized that I had tunnel vision on and there was way cooler things happening that I was just totally avoiding. So, yeah, I forgot the original question, but I think that it’s important to learn some things about yourself that you didn’t learn already because you just had a limited collection of experiences. And I ended up traveling the world for work and working with teams, and we had language barriers, not to mention just socioeconomic differences and technology differences. And it was very eye-opening, but it was an experience that I wish I just would’ve had sooner.

Crystal Lay:
Yeah, there’s nothing like standing next to someone and brushing your teeth in the community bathroom and learning about them and who they are. My second year I lived … and we had this place called the Blue House. I lived in the Blue House and one of my roommates was from China. I had never lived with someone from a different country before, and so that was a learning experience. And so I think about could I have been a different and better roommate? What are the things that I was raised learning and knowing? And I also think about how that particular living situation really set me up for some of the cool experiences that I had later on when I traveled abroad as well.
So, I really liked when you talked about wanting to have those opportunities sooner, but the appreciation you had for when you did have them in your professional world. So, thank you for sharing that with us. So, I’m going to switch to your current career. So, I’ve been checking out your socials and it looks like you’ve had a pretty successful career in photography, working with major sports brands. How does your time in college, and then I know you majored in English lit, your time in college, your major, any regrets? How did that influence the path to get to your career that you have now?

Justin Kosman:
So, I wanted to be a professional writer. That’s why I majored in English. And when I was at North Central, I actually met North Central’s sports photographer, Steve Waltman, and he worked for professional teams and other D1 colleges all around Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana. So, I was a hobbyist photographer and had no … I liked reading sports magazines and I was like, I thought it’d be so cool to make those photos myself. I just had no … North Central didn’t have a photography program. I didn’t really think of pursuing it. I didn’t even think it could be a career. I met him and that kind of changed my trajectory. So, that just really meant that I worked with him all four years just as his assistant.
Let’s see. I appreciate the writing, the practice that writing gave me because it caused me to really think deeply about the way I communicated and the way that I put together ideas within the assignment, but also knowing your audience too. And I translated that a lot to what I do now and actually had, it’s a long story, but I had a couple Richter grants that I wrote and that were funded. So, I had this kind of cold experience writing a budget and a project and submitting it to a bunch of 60 year olds that knew nothing about what I did, and they were just like, yeah, sounds great. It’s not science. I think they really just approved it because it wasn’t just another science grant to do some study.
I was in the minority in terms of who was submitting for grant money. And actually I do that a lot now. I have to write budgets and pitches, and so the way I have to communicate with my clients and how I want to take their vision and kind of change it a little bit, I still do that every single month. Now, I wish I would’ve maybe taken some more business classes, but I think I just wanted some more exposure to that part of the career earlier because I’ve kind of grown to like that now. I just kind of avoided it too. So, there’s a theme of me avoiding things and then turning out like, oh, I actually like this. So, yeah, I think at some point I should have been maybe exposed to that, but the career I ended up going to was not super linear from what I studied at North Central.
So, I’m not saying my curriculum was at fault. I just wish there was a way that I could have had a better experience with that. And then that would’ve kind of given me some more collaborative opportunities I think, working in some business classes because I would assume that they do more things in teams, which I was doing none of necessarily. Yeah. Regret wise, I really like how everything turned out. I mean, really, I just wish I would’ve not been so scared to do things and would try to convince myself I didn’t need it. And I think now that’s when I hear that kind of subconscious saying those things. It’s like, oh, maybe if that’s something you’re intentionally avoiding, that’s something you probably need and could grow from.

Crystal Lay:
I really like that piece. It’s like that feeling of nervousness maybe. I don’t know. I don’t know, but you’ve turned that into a maybe I should try that and not shy away. And I think some of those come up for college students of that nervousness, maybe avoidance, but college seems like the time where you can try, it’s almost like this playground. Here are all these different options, and this might be the safest place maybe to try some of these different things out. So, I love that you’re listening to your inner voice and I think an invitation for current college students to do that as well maybe.

Justin Kosman:
Yeah, I think that it’s kind of mixed messages because you go from high school, the messaging is like, okay, you have to be perfect in high school, so you get a great GPA so you can get into a great college and then maybe you also have to be perfect here, but you should experiment and it’s okay if you fail, but if you don’t have a 4.0, you’re not going to get into a great grad school or PhD program. So, I maybe didn’t get that messaging, but I could see a lot of my peers would. They held that in very high regard. And no one has ever asked for my GPA ever. Not once.
So, I think that’s some mixed messaging that students default to. I’m only going to do something that I know I can be good at for the short-term goal of just getting the good grade instead of experimenting with different majors or minors or curriculums. I think we all go through that, but I feel like when you’re that age, you think that’s the be all end all. Because you’re trying to make your parents happy, you’re trying to make your professors happy, and you think that no one else is really giving you any signs of what could experimentation … how could that be rewarded tangibly? Well, maybe it’s not rewarded tangibly, but I think it can really give you some ideas of where your passions are that you just haven’t had the experience yet.

Crystal Lay:
I like that too. And when you mentioned the GPA piece, I will tell you I came out of North Central with a 3.19. I’ll say it aloud, I’ll say it out loud, and you couldn’t have told me that some day I would get a PhD. I think these numbers really stick in your head of good enough and value. And so this piece about trying different things, sorting through all the noise and the messages and the expectations, and really trying to, obviously you want to be able to care for yourself and get a home and food and be secure, and is there space for you to explore a little bit too and accomplish both of those things?
So, I love that. So, I want to go into this piece about community and belonging for you, and then how does that connect with the work you do now? And so you mentioned some regret pieces, but more so I’m going to call them reflections, which have been really powerful. So, as you think about community and belonging in your college experience, how important is that to you in your work now as you collaborate and build relationships with different partners and clients?

Justin Kosman:
Yeah, I mean, I think I had some of the most meaningful experiences working in the writing center, and you would have a student that would, I would be, let’s say a junior and it’d be a freshman student. They’d bring in this paper that you could tell that meant a lot to them, or they put a lot of work into it, or they thought it meant a lot in the grand scheme of things. And you had to be very careful to not just tear it apart in a way that wasn’t helpful. And it’s those one-on-one interactions that I still, when I go into meetings and I see a creative presentation and I see some things that are either problematic or just not realistic within their budget.
It’s all I think about getting to a mutual goal and something that not only managing expectations. So, within the writing center, I had a lot of fun doing that because I felt like I was actually helping these kids and not just grading, giving them another bad grade, which they had already gotten, which is why they ended up there. And they really did feel, I guess lost. That was kind of the vibe that they’re giving me. They didn’t know why they got this grade or they didn’t understand the comments. I liked the writing center because it was everybody from one major.
You’d be working with two or three different people, your peers from the English department, so everybody would kind of be there differently. It felt, it’s kind of like my earliest experience of working in an office. I still haven’t really ever worked in an office per se, but in terms of like, oh, I have to work with, oh, Janet’s on the schedule tonight, or Brian’s on the schedule tonight. So, that’s probably where I felt the most at home on campus during those four years, I would say. And it was you had those fly on the wall experiences where you could hear how they were working with the students. If you didn’t have someone in with you, you could eavesdrop on what they were doing. And that was kind of where I felt like I was the most at home because it was something that I was good at in the moment for how old I was relative to who I was helping. And we talk about in the dorms, actually, I was friends with my RAs for the most part. Do you remember Andre Ward?

Crystal Lay:
Yes.

Justin Kosman:
Yeah, he was a good friend. I don’t think he was maybe the best RA, but in terms of making me feel safe and that being someone that I could come talk to, he was great. And I think at the very least, that’s how I think an RA should be. That’s the gateway to them being more than just someone with an extra key and making sure that no one burns the place down. If you’re not accessible and compassionate and not threatening, you can’t really be anything else. So, I think he was a good example of someone that we kept in touch a little bit, but at the very least, he was someone that I didn’t try to avoid. You know what I mean? And we had nothing in common, but he made … What was it? Fort Hill was where he was at. He made that feel like a really safe place. Not that it wasn’t safe, but a place that I could be myself and not … I could hang out in the hallway and I could have friends there. Right?

Crystal Lay:
Yeah. And he wore shades indoors and outdoor. He always had shades. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So, you talked about being accessible and making it feel like this is a place that can be home, home away from home. And so those are some really cool things I think to share with our RAs who might be listening or watching, is how can you create a place where people feel like they can be themselves and be in the community? And then definitely shout out to Andre. He’s awesome. So, hindsight, so you were on the swim team, and I don’t know if you got my little, let’s dive in joke during my intro, but hindsight, how do you think students today can strike a balance between academics, athletics, and then building these meaningful connections without feeling overwhelmed? Because as you’re telling your story there’s moments of these really cool opportunities, some regrets and mix in pieces, but that also sounds a little overwhelming. Like this 18, 19, 20-year-old person trying to navigate all those things. How do you think you can balance all of the things happening as a student?

Justin Kosman:
I mean, I really don’t think my best experiences came from living in a balanced time. Maybe that was just me personally, but I mean, in the last 20 years, I think that I felt overwhelmed many times. And some of the best things have come from those moments where I was maybe stretching my capabilities creatively or taking on too many projects at once. You learn a lot from that. I would say it’s going to happen whether you want to or not, whether you want it to happen or not. I would say one thing you can’t get back is trying to sell your sleep to work more.
That is going to be across the board something that you can’t really make up even though you feel you’re able to make it up. I think a strategy would be to lean in and try and take a lot of things to mastery, because I think you can learn if that’s something that really that you’re passionate about. And I think if you just try to keep everything balanced, you just don’t get a great experience. I think my best experiences have happened when they’ve been during deadlines or when I was trying to learn something that I said I could do in a project, and I’m trying to learn it before I do it without really having any guidance.
I mean, you’re going to feel overwhelmed and the first time you feel really overwhelmed is going to feel like it’s the end of the world, and then a year later, you’re either not going to remember that or that’s going to be normal for you. So, you’re just kind of moving your goalposts further and further out. I think about swimming. Swimming was really, really, really hard. I was puking in buckets sometimes. It was the most aerobic sport I’d ever done at that level. I swam in high school. And so this was just a higher level of that. And I always think back to those days when I’m on bike rides or when I’m on, just when I’m hauling camera gear up a mountain, I’m like, okay, this is hard, but this is nothing compared to what I did. I’ve done stuff way harder, so I’ll be fine.
And I look back on some of those moments where it’s like, okay, well, I’ve done [inaudible 00:22:44] … I’m at a photo shoot, and it’s starting to get chaotic and things are changing, and it’s like, okay, this is crazy in the moment, but it’s not any more complicated than things I’ve done. So, I feel like maybe advice would be don’t avoid overwhelming times or just make yourself a schedule so you can map it out and see that, okay, this will have a beginning, middle, and end. And I would say personally, don’t reach for drugs or alcohol because it’s going to make your sleep worse and you’re just going to be starting further back each time, each time you wake up.
I mean, that’s my personal experience. So, yeah, I mean, I think the notion of balance is something that just maybe is true when you average it all out. So, I think for the amount of time that you have in a really extreme growth period, you probably need some really extreme rest period. But the idea that you’re just going to operate at a six and a half, seven all the time isn’t really real. And a lot of times it isn’t even under your control.

Crystal Lay:
Sometimes in our field, my field, we talk about work-life integration, right? Nothing’s ever really in balance, and you’re trying to figure out how to fit in the things, and it’s really about prioritizing. And it sounds like this idea of prioritizing self-care, which we say now, we weren’t talking about self-care 20 years ago, but sleep. How are you caring for your body? What are you putting into your body? And how are you prioritizing time to just recharge so you can be your best self? So, you talked about living with an RA your junior year. We talked about Andre. Let’s talk about your RA, and we can leave names out, but how do you think an RA could have played a role in helping you build more connections or navigating your challenges as a student athlete? And then what kind of support would’ve been most helpful? So, really centering in on something the RA could have done to support you as a student.

Justin Kosman:
Yeah. I was thinking about this question because you sent me the questions in advance and I wrote some answers, and then I revisited the questions and then kind of rewrote them. And I wasn’t an RA. I lived with an RA junior year in student village. Full disclosure, I knew he was going to be a single occupant in a triple size room. So, I thought if I lived with him, we would have a bigger room, but we became great friends. So, that was my initial motivation. I feel like the residence community and then the academic community were way too disconnected.
And maybe that’s different in 20 years, but I think that that could have been something that could have been more of a full circle integration, maybe something that wasn’t necessarily student facing, but if it was more behind the scenes, then that would’ve given maybe the RA some more insight into what’s going on with all these students. I was a great student, but even in terms of connecting students that were in the same major or maybe that didn’t know each other, that would’ve been something helpful. Andre was trying to hook me up with girls. In hindsight, I would’ve appreciated maybe him hooking me up with people who are interested in the same things I was interested in. You know what I mean? That would’ve been more helpful in hindsight, but he’d be like, “Oh, do you know this person?” And it was mostly another female athlete, but there were a lot of people that I didn’t meet until my senior year that I’m like, “Oh, man, you were into photography. I wish I would’ve known this three years ago.”
So, I think making the residence hall a safe place, but also maybe bringing people together in more of a one-on-one situation. Because in my experience, the RA events, it was trying to get a bunch of people together and then all the time, and it kind of felt like it was just another freshman year icebreaker that people were just trying to get through. And for the most part, the people that went to those were people that were outgoing anyway, because I loved that shit. So, I think trying to make more one-on-one connections, and that’s a higher ask for an RA, I totally understand that, but they’re in a position to potentially do that. So, maybe being more of a social connector would’ve been something that could have been just not another extension of how they were valuable to the students.

Crystal Lay:
Yeah, I like that.

Justin Kosman:
How is it now? Are you guys connected to the academic departments?

Crystal Lay:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I like the social connection piece. There’s actually a theory, it’s called dance floor theory. And so you’re on the dance floor and you’re introducing people to each other and you’re setting up these little pockets of connection for folks. And so that is what it should be. So, it depends on the campus where you work. So, some campuses have residential colleges or they’ll have focus communities or affinity housing where folks are grouped by their major. So, for instance, we could have lived on the same floor being English Lit majors and then make a connection. We’ll put classes together, maybe do some programmatic pieces together. Maybe one of our professors lived in the community. So, there’s that iteration all the way to some folks. All the student-athletes may live together. So, it really depends on the type of campus that you are at.
My particular institution, NIU, we have affinity housing, and so sometimes there’s identity housing, so identities are interested in that identity, but we really do have spaces where RAs do have one-on-ones. And so what you’re talking about, your RA will sit down with you and say, “Hey, what are you into? Where are you from?” Etc. And then they have the opportunity to say, “Oh, that’s really cool, Justin, you’re into photography. Do you know Kara who’s in room 101, she’s in photography? Or she’s from Illinois too, make a connection.” So, I think we’re more situated to do that. The other thing that’s different is the ratio. We went to a really small school, but here it’s 10,000 students that live on campus, and so the ratio could be one to 30. Some schools it’s one to 90. So, what you talked about is the RA’s capacity and ability to help build community. And that’s something that I think really varies based on your campus.

Justin Kosman:
Yeah, I’m trying to think. Would I have preferred to live in a hall of all English majors? I don’t know. Maybe.

Crystal Lay:
We’ll just read books together. It’d be great.

Justin Kosman:
Everybody would just be in their room typing with headphones on. You wouldn’t know. Yeah.

Crystal Lay:
Okay. So, I do want to get back to the photography thing. So, looking at your current success, what advice would you give to students about stepping outside their comfort zone? And you’ve done some of this, so feel free to skip over, but you went to school for one thing, and I think this happens often. And then you made a connection with the staff person who said, “Hey, did you think about this?” So, what advice do you give to students again about stepping outside their comfort zones to help shape their future career?

Justin Kosman:
I would say internships and mentorships are going to be the easiest way to do it yourself, where someone else is kind of actually facilitating it. I think if it’s just the decision is left up to the person, just the lack of structure is not going to yield a very great experience. So, I look back and my internships and my mentorships, I’d say they fast forwarded me in my career more than anything in a couple different ways. It was like, oh, I really like this, or, wow, I really, really don’t like this. It was like a major yes or a hell no, I don’t want to do that. So, I would say there’s a way. It’s tough to say take as many unpaid opportunities as you can because there’s going to be just more of those available at the time when you’re just completely broke. Anything helps.
But man, I don’t know. You just overestimate how important money is at that time, and it is. So, you need to have a baseline for things. But I worked for that sports photographer and he paid me six bucks an hour. It was like nothing. He’d pay me, so, it’d be like 50 bucks a game. He should have paid me nothing. I should have paid him $500 a game for what he was giving me in terms of experience. And I know it can sometimes feel like you’re being taken advantage of as an intern financially, but really you’re a liability to them because not only do they have to do their job, but they have to teach you how to do your job while their time is probably better spent just doing their job. So, the fact that any internships exist are incredible. So, I would say that my advice would be to have those experiences, understand that three months you can learn a lot about yourself and the job in three months and have it not feel very permanent.
And I think as many of those as you can have the better, because that’s kind of like that bridge between the college experience and then full-time employment somewhere. That’s a big jump. So, whether or not you have those internships in college or you have them in the summers, they’ve shaped my life probably more than anything. And I would say they’ve bridged parts of my life that I really couldn’t have done otherwise, and certainly not within such speed and accuracy in which they’ve done it. And I still have mentors today. A good friend of mine up in San Francisco. He is a professional photographer. He’s like 64 years old. So, I just did, I shot a job with him a month ago, a big pharmaceutical job, and I learned a lot from him. And yeah, he seems like he does the same stuff my dad does that annoys me, but I try to learn from him.
Because he did this stuff in the nineties and the eighties when it was way harder to do and certain very nuanced things like how he interacts with the client as a European client. So, there was kind of some cultural nuances that maybe were different. I just tried, when I’m in those moments, I have to recognize, okay, this is like, yes, I’m making money, but the real value is in understanding the interpersonal communication that’s happening around me in real time and how they’re managing all these different small hurdles that we always find on set. Just anyway. I think having a growth mindset is something that you develop over time. A specific example would be, and I worked for ESPN out of college when I was in California. I worked on their X Game shows, did that for about eight years.
So, I worked, it was like two months leading up to each live show. I was one of their writers and researchers, and I would go to events and update athlete stories, and they would use those stories to produce features leading into the events. And when I was on site, I was in these booths with 24 camera feeds, and I’m telling them which to pull for replays and stuff. I didn’t meet anybody. I don’t know anybody from those eight years from working on site. None of those cameramen, I don’t know any of their names, none of the directors. I don’t know any of them. I squandered that opportunity so early on, and I regret that so much because it was an environment that I find myself in now professionally where I’m producing shoots on a much smaller scale, but I was just so focused on this one thing that I was doing and … Oh, sorry. There’s a fire truck outside. That’s weird.
We have a fire station at the end of our street. Anyway. Yeah, so I will look back and I’m glad I don’t work with ESPN right now. I feel like what I do now is great. A lot of my friends still do. That’s just an aside. But I am just like, God, why wasn’t I meeting these people? I worked with so many different people. The guys I worked with at ESPN in the summer, they had just come from Wimbledon or March Madness, and I could have had a way more diverse experience on the job there, and I just didn’t because I wasn’t there. My mindset wasn’t there. And I do regret that. In the same way I regret keeping my head down in college for the first couple of years and not meeting new people. It’s the same thing. I realize the value of it now professionally, and that goes back to how I regret being more of a home body in college and just focusing on me my first couple of years.

Crystal Lay:
What I’m hearing is live in the moment and take advantage of all the opportunities. And so I’m really appreciative of that, because I think folks who are listening have the opportunity to look around and say what makes sense. But also I’m going to use the balance word or don’t say yes to everything, or maybe it’s intention. Be intentional and don’t count yourself out. Just try things with intention. All right. So, we’re coming to the end of our time, Justin. If folks wanted to learn more about the things that you have shared or they’re like, “Hey, I think I want to pursue a career in photography”, where do you think they should start? Do you have any resources or things that you would recommend?

Justin Kosman:
If I were starting out now, I feel like I would have more of an advantage in this day and age than I did before, just because social media gives you access to so many more people and resources and visual references. I think it can also feel overwhelming that there’s a lot out there and trying to decide what you like and what you’re good at. I would say try to find someone locally that does what you think you want to do and try to be helpful to them somehow. Maybe it’s just being an assistant on set.
I’ve had local guys that want to move on from working in the art department on shoots to being more on the camera side, and I’ll invite them on to our shoots and I’ll let them hang out by the camera department and do those things. I think a one-on-one connection is you’re going to learn the most. And I think what mentors did for me was they simplified a lot of things that seemed like it was just very overwhelming.
I think that’s what the best thing a mentor can do and be like, okay, I know you think that this is really complicated, but it’s really only two or three things that you have to do very precisely, and everything else can be as simple as you want it. So, I think the best mentors have done that for me, and it’s kind of like they become aha moments. So, I would say find someone that’s local geographically to you that you can meet in person. Because they can teach you more than you’re going to be able to learn on YouTube without any guidance. Guidance is kind of like the through line. If you don’t have guidance from someone who’s been there and done that, then you can just kind of go in circles.

Crystal Lay:
And you have provided tons of that, lots of good guidance and advice, and so thank you for everything that you’ve shared. I would love to add the links to your website, to the show notes, because your photography is beautiful. And so I think there’s some really cool pieces if folks want to check that out, if that works for you.

Justin Kosman:
Yeah.

Crystal Lay:
Okay. Awesome. So, I’ll get that added to our show notes. This was such a wonderful conversation. It was great to catch up, and thank you for sharing your wisdom and joining me today. All right.

Justin Kosman:
Absolutely.

Crystal Lay:
Yeah. Awkward pause, Justin. Okay, so thank you all for joining us on this episode of ResEdChat. If you have an idea of a topic or a person that you would like us to have on the show, please let us know by reaching out to Roompact. Take care.