Ever feel like you’re faking it in housing? In this episode of ResEdChat, Crystal chats with Dr. A.J. Lauer, from Thriving Ibis Leadership Solutions, about imposter syndrome, identity, and the pressures of being the “expert” in res life. Tune in for real talk, empowering tips, and a reminder that yes, you belong here. If you have a topic idea or want to engage in the community discussion, use the hashtag #ResEdChat.
Guest: AJ Lauer, EdD (she/her), Founder, Thriving Ibis Leadership Solutions
Host: Crystal Lay
Listen to the Podcast:
Watch the Video:
Show Notes:
- My Monster Mungo (available on Amazon and on Bookshop)
- AJ Lauer, EdD on LinkedIn
- Thriving Ibis Leadership Solutions
- Valerie Young – Impostor Syndrome Institute
About ResEdChat
Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast is a platform to showcase people doing great work and talk about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. If you have a topic idea for an episode, let us know!
Transcript:
Crystal Lay:
Welcome back to Roompact Resident Chat podcast, a platform to showcase people doing great work and talking about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. I’m your host, Crystal Lay, and I use a she/her series pronouns.
Have you ever had a moment where you started to doubt yourself or you thought, am I the right person for this thing? Did they really mean to choose me? Have you ever felt like an imposter? Yep. I think you have because I know I have.
So I wanted to spend some time today with a guest to talk a little bit more about something we call imposter syndrome; the moment where you really start to doubt and question whether or not you can do the thing you’ve been asked to do. I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into this topic and talk about it as it applies to working in housing and residence life.
I am very excited about this guest. We worked together in housing many moons ago, and now she’s doing some really great work and can help us as we think about imposter syndrome and housing. And with that, I’ll have our guests introduce themselves.
AJ Lauer:
Thank you so much, Crystal. It’s fantastic to be here. It’s always great to see your face. My name is Dr. AJ Lauer. I also use the she/her pronouns, and I am the founder and owner of Thriving Ibis Leadership Solutions, where I provide soft skills training to people, leaders, who work in science and technology fields. So I do workshops, I do executive coaching and all of those kinds of great, fun, exciting things.
Crystal Lay:
Yes, and I had a little imposter moment when I was starting. I was like, oh my gosh, can I have this conversation with AJ? So I am so excited to have you here.
So let’s start with the basics. How do you define imposter syndrome? And then why do you think it’s common, or is it common, amongst housing professionals?
AJ Lauer:
So imposter feelings, and I’m going to pause and say we commonly say imposter syndrome, but the more correct word to use for this is actually imposter phenomenon. And I always take a moment to clarify that when I start to talk about this because I think that it is a really helpful distinction in helping us cope with these feelings as they show up.
When we think about a syndrome, we think of something that you have, it’s with you always, and it’s typically not curable. Whereas, an imposter phenomenon, is a situation that arises in certain circumstances. A phenomenon is a thing that happens at a time. It’s not necessarily a long-standing, totally stuck experience that you can’t overcome.
So when we talk about these imposter feelings, we’re typically talking about three basic experiences that come up. It’s the feeling that you are not good enough for whatever it is, that you achieving things is due to external circumstances, and that you are going to lose out on these achievements when people figure out that you’re not actually that great.
And I think in housing professionals, well, 82% of the world experiences an imposter moment at some point in their lives. So we often think of imposter feelings as being a women’s issue or something that’s only for queer people or only for people with disabilities or whatever; people who have a non-majority identity might be experiencing. But 82% of the people in the world experience imposter feelings at some point, which means even our white, straight, able-bodied Christian male colleagues, probably have experienced it at some point.
And so that means that among housing professionals, at least 82% of people have experienced it, and probably more, because housing professionals have so many people with marginalized identities in the field.
Crystal Lay:
Wow. So I hear you saying that it could be a moment in time. It’s not just always hanging out with you. So I like this idea of a phenomenon, this moment that’s happening. And then you also talked about, depending on the identity you hold, you may or may not be a part of a percentage, but a pretty large percentage, of folks in the world who are experiencing this phenomenon, or this idea that maybe I’m not good enough.
And yes, in housing, we do have a greater amount of folks who have marginalized identities who work in the field because I think we lean toward this idea that we are more accepting and we’re supposed to be providing spaces for folks to be themselves and show up in an authentic way.
I want to get a little personal, AJ. Can you share a time when maybe you experienced imposter phenomena in your work? And then how did you navigate it?
AJ Lauer:
So, I told you I was thinking about this earlier and I couldn’t think of a specific time, but I want to say that I felt like an imposter for most of the time that I worked in Residence Life. There was a lot about living in. I’m pretty introverted. My apartment was located right off of the lobby, and so people would accidentally knock on my door, or if I left my door unlocked, I would find students in my living room and things like that. And there just was a lot about the role that wasn’t in great alignment with who I am as a person. And that left me feeling like I can’t be good at this. I just didn’t feel like I could ever excel in the role. And that left me feeling like, I’m just faking it until I make it. I told myself I would be here for two years. I’m faking it, I’m smiling. I’m making it look like I know what I’m doing, but I really have no idea.
And so when we talk about imposter feelings, there are really five profiles that come up. These are based on Dr. Valerie Young’s research. And she talks about the perfectionist type of imposter, which is someone who is focusing on how well something is done and they feel shame if they make a small error.
We have the expert who focuses on how much they know and how well they know it, and they feel shame if they don’t know even the tiniest detail. I think for me, that was what was really hard in housing because we are expected to know. You have to understand the advising process. You have to know how to call emergency services. You have to know what the hours are at the gym. You have to know what all the different departments are in the academic places in case a student comes to you and says they don’t know what their major is and you can help direct that. There are so many things that you have to know. And I think especially in my early twenties, I really felt like I needed to know everything. I was like, I’ve got a master’s degree, I should understand how to do all these things. And I think in my early career especially, I was discovering that it’s impossible to know all the things, and that was very humbling and really left me in that kind of heightened imposter feeling.
The third one is the soloist, which focuses on who does something. And this is the person who feels shame if they need any help accomplishing anything.
The fourth is the natural genius who focuses on ease and speed of accomplishments. So if they have a hard time doing something on the first try, then they feel shame.
And the last one is the super human. And I think we see this one a lot in housing and Residential Life as well. And our super humans in the room are the ones who focus on how many tasks or roles they can juggle at once. And they feel shame if they drop any balls, even smaller, unimportant ones. And so you can totally see how that would happen in housing because we have events and judicial processes and room changes and front desks and RAs and whatever other things that we’re managing within that housing and Residential Life process,
Crystal Lay:
I feel called out.
AJ Lauer:
Oh no.
Crystal Lay:
I think I lean into that super human thing of juggling all the things. And I think treating them as if they’re all glass balls and they’re not. If I drop this one thing, everything’s going to go to pieces and that’s not the reality of most things in life.
And you talked a little bit about this. So housing professionals are expected, I think, to be the experts in crisis management, student support, facilities, budgeting, et cetera. How do you think, and can you elaborate a little bit further, how does that contribute to the feelings of imposter? Of being an imposter? And in addition to that, how much of that is, maybe this isn’t the right job for me, or what I’m looking for, versus is it reasonable to have these expectations that we need to know all of these things?
AJ Lauer:
Yeah. So oh, so much to unpack there. It contributes to feelings of imposter feelings because we want to know the right direction to send our students. We want to be able to help and when we can’t, or we miss some tiny detail in what needs to be done, then we feel really bad about it.
And you highlighted that there’s an expectation of knowing all of these things, and that is the research is showing over and over again that it’s these high expectations of ourselves, that contribute to feeling like we’re never good enough.
So you and I are sitting here and we have our doctorates. It’s a very common experience for people, especially right after finishing their doctoral work, to go into a deep pit of imposter feelings because you’ve come out and we have this idea that people with their doctorates know so much and they’re the experts in their fields and all of these things. And you come out of school and you’re like, “I mean, do I really know what I’m doing?”
And I think when you’re working in an academic environment that can be influenced even higher. Right? Because you are surrounded by people with their doctorates, you’re surrounded by the Nobel Prize winner down the hall who did some research in physics, something, something, and you’re like, “Oh, I just run a residence hall.” It’s very easy to look at ourselves as being less than and not feel as competent because we see the high achievements of other people and it’s harder to feel it ourselves.
Crystal Lay:
So what are some strategies that you would recommend to help folks in Residence Life combat these feelings? How do you tell yourself you are good enough? What are some strategies?
AJ Lauer:
So the strategies really kind of depend on which of those five types that I described earlier, that you most identify with. But in general, because these feelings really arise from an idea of what competent means, you can look at what you are doing and say, “What does 80% look like? Is that good enough? How can I help myself understand that, if you have the perfectionist type 110% is massively overachieving.” Right?
And so ask yourself really kind questions about what is really necessary and what competency actually looks like. Does competency look like being able to answer every single question about the registration process? Or does competency look like, you know what? I don’t know the answer to that question, but let me connect you with someone in the advising office who can answer the question that you need to get you registered properly.
Crystal Lay:
So I think if there’s a way that departments or even supervisors can outline what is competent in each as a first year RD, this is what success looks like. Because then you have a marker, because if you don’t have a marker, you’re all over the place. You’re comparing yourself to other folks. And so I wonder if that could be a strategy employed by supervisors to say, this is competence in this particular role, potentially.
AJ Lauer:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think as supervisors, this comes in again with the high percentage of people with marginalized identities who are in the field. We are accustomed to striving. We are accustomed to working our behinds off to get where we are. And that often looks like showing up at 110% in order to just get by, get through school, whatever it is.
So as a supervisor, when you notice somebody veering toward 110%, or beating themselves up because they don’t know as much as a second, third, fourth year professional, corralling folks back in and saying, “I’m really proud of you for being excited about this and this is what my expectations are. I don’t need you to exceed expectations on X, Y, Z parts. If this really excites you and it’s a direction you want to go with your career, I will absolutely support you, but you don’t have to do this for every single piece of your role.”
Crystal Lay:
And that’s the external factors you’re talking about, the influence of what you take on and what you don’t, and really level setting. I like that piece.
So we’re talking a little bit about departments and supervisors, so I want to go further with systemic factors. So identity, background, representation, and leadership, how do those pieces shape experiences of imposter syndrome feelings?
So if you have a marginalized identity or maybe your position that you have, does any of that connect with how you might experience imposter syndrome? And you talked about folks with marginalized identities may feel it more, because some of us, I can say I’m raised in a culture where you do twice as much to be seen as competent. I go at it 110% and still make it meets expectations, which can be really difficult. And so I think about things that come up for me, but are there other examples that you can point out that shape those feelings in our field?
AJ Lauer:
Yeah. I mean, we’ve already talked about a lot of those different things. I think it comes back to that idea of the striving, and how has having a really high idea of competence shaped you as a human?
Are there any stereotypes that you are breaking by being the person that you are? Maybe you came up and you were a woman, a woman of color, a queer person in science or math, and in that, you were breaking stereotypes. That is a situation where we’re much more likely to feel those imposter feelings and those carry with us. Even if we are now in a field like housing where there are other people around us who look like us, and we have this really accepting field, you still carry with you some of that competence baggage and it transfers into everything that you do.
Yeah, sorry.
Crystal Lay:
No, no.
AJ Lauer:
That means that we can work on it.
Crystal Lay:
Yeah, I like that. And you’re naming things. Right? And I think part of it is being aware and asking yourself some really good questions. Where’s this coming from? What have I learned and what does support look like as I wrestle with these different feelings that are popping up? And what does that have to do with my identity in this space?
So I wonder if there’s any advice that you have for new professionals, or grad students, who feel like they don’t belong because now we’re getting into that newness and there’s some excitement. I’m ready to try this. But I think there are moments where you’re either put in your place or you’re not seen as equal. I think that happens. And so what advice do you have for folks who might be in that situation, to push forward and know that they are good enough?
AJ Lauer:
Yeah. Again, do some level setting with your supervisor and with some trusted peers. Don’t be afraid to have conversations about what expectations actually look like and how are you meeting them and how might we meet them differently next year? And make sure that we’re just checking in constantly and remembering that you’re early in your career, you’re not supposed to know everything.
I think it really helps when people who are directors of housing or assistant directors of housing or whatever say, “You know what? I don’t know. I haven’t figured that out yet.” Because when our leaders can show us that they too are still building their competency, that alleviates a lot of that pressure from our newer professionals and grad students.
Crystal Lay:
I absolutely love that you just said you don’t have to know everything. You’re giving permission. Because again, we’ve been talking about throughout, you feel like you have to. And at the bare minimum, what I tell my team is, “You are a referral agent. You are a connector. You don’t have to know from A to Z. You need to tell the student to get to the person who’s going to help them at that part of their journey. And if you’ve done this, you’ve done your job well.”
But sometimes you feel like you want to do more, I have to do more. It’s like, no, you are a part of the journey. You don’t have to be there for the whole piece of it.
So I think we’ve talked a lot about the supervisors building some workplace confidence and competence and supporting and overcoming self-doubt, because I wanted to ask you about that, but you’ve done a really good job in expressing some ways that leaders can do that.
I do want to get into your book though. We had a chance to bring you to campus here and you were phenomenal and you were able to talk about, not just your book, but help people get into the five types of imposter and also do some self-work to figure out where they fall and identifying what their needs are.
Can you talk a little bit more about your book and then this idea of naming your inner imposter monster? I think that could be helpful for folks who want to learn more about that concept, particularly as we think about how do I do this for myself?
AJ Lauer:
Yeah, absolutely. So my book is called My Monster Mungo, a story about imposter syndrome. And it’s actually an illustrated short story for adults. We, like children, learn really well when we get to look at pictures. And so it is a beautifully illustrated book that takes a main character called Katie, through her journey of having a really bad day at work and learning from her friends about their experiences with feeling like an imposter. And then at the suggestion of one of her friends, she takes a moment and meets her imposter monster.
So the way that I talk about imposter monsters is, when you feel like an imposter, often there’s a voice in your head that is telling you you are not good enough. It’s telling you you’re a phony. It’s telling you somebody’s going to find you out. If you can take that voice and imagine it as a little monster, imagine that part of you that’s showing up as a little creature, that you can actually interact with.
So for anybody who’s watching the video, you can actually see my monster behind me. His name is Borscht. He’s a little blue monster with purple stripes. When he is in a really good mood, he has a little shirt that he wears that says, “I heart Dr. AJ.” And when I feel like, so I’m a really strong expert type of imposter. I have a little bit of a perfectionist streak in me as well. And so when I start to feel those expert imposter feelings, I will say, “Hey, Borscht, I’m going into this podcast. I’m going into this talk. I know they’re going to grill me. They’re going to ask a lot of questions. And my imposter feelings about being an expert are here right now. How can we support each other in handling this situation?”
What you’re doing in that moment is you’re actually talking to a part of yourself who has probably shown up to protect you from this feeling of inadequacy, this feeling of not being competent enough. And so by having that conversation, you can then kind of calm down that part and show them that you have what it takes. You have the competence. You have the understanding. And if you don’t, you also have the strategies to handle it. You can be that person who says, “You know what? I don’t know the nuances of this advising question that you’re asking me, but let me connect you with the right person.”
And so the idea of the monster is this kind of personification of a part of you, and that draws from something called Parts Work, which is a therapeutic tradition in which we recognize that we all have different parts that show up within us. That’s all explained in the book. We don’t have time for that today. But it’s a beautiful concept and it works really, really nicely for the imposter feelings, imposter phenomenon moments in our life.
Crystal Lay:
It is a colorful and beautifully illustrated book. And when you did one of the activities with us where we got to draw and name our monster, I thought about the feelings that come up in my body. So that physiological reaction I have when I feel like an imposter. And so mine is always this tightening in my chest. And so my little monster is named Chesty.
AJ Lauer:
I love it.
Crystal Lay:
And so with the perfection, not the perfection, but with the super human, my question to myself, which you helped me through, was what would happen if I did not do all of these things? And it was a really powerful moment.
And so I liked this idea of if folks wanted to name their monster, but this idea of talking yourself through the feeling, the moment, and trying to really understand where the feeling is coming from, because I believe that you got the job because you can do it. You are capable, you are enough, and hopefully you have enough resources and people in your network, to help you and remind you of what you have to contribute.
But I just remember my little Chesty monster of like, “Okay, Crystal, you’re feeling this feeling right now. What would happen if?” People Can support you in this thing? And just remembering that I am able to do this. And if I’m not, if I’m saying “yes” to this, what am I saying “no” to.
AJ Lauer:
Space might be-
Crystal Lay:
Powerful.
AJ Lauer:
What space might be created in your life by dropping one of those balls?
Crystal Lay:
And don’t fill it with something else. Right?
AJ Lauer:
Right. It’s okay to fill that space with a nap.
Crystal Lay:
Okay. Okay. So yeah, I love all these pieces and I can see a lot of the connections. It really comes down to, you don’t have to know everything. How can departments really set folks up differently with what are the realistic expectations? And then also that self-talk and remembering your worth and value and that you are enough.
So AJ, just for fun, I’m curious, if you could create an anti-imposter syndrome playlist because you could talk yourself through it, and then some people like to listen to music, right?
AJ Lauer:
Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
This is the song that’s going to get me out of my head. But for you, if you could do that, what would be a song that would be on your playlist?
AJ Lauer:
I really love the song, This Is Me, from The Greatest Showman.
Crystal Lay:
Yes.
AJ Lauer:
It is so good. And there are so many lyrics in it that are really applicable to that imposter feeling that comes up. They talk about, I won’t let the shame sink in. Right? We’re going to burst through these barricades. We are reaching for the sun. And all of that when we’re having those imposter moments is what I think we need to hear.
Crystal Lay:
I love that. I think there’s a YouTube video of me performing that somewhere at a former campus.
AJ Lauer:
We’re going to need to link that in the show notes.
Crystal Lay:
But that is a great song full of empowerment. And so I love that song. I might listen to it when we’re done here. Okay, so we’re coming to the end of our time. AJ. If folks want us to learn more about imposter Feelings, syndrome phenomenon, I know you’re leaning into saying the syndrome piece, which I really like, where do you recommend they start? What are some resources that have been helpful or could be helpful?
AJ Lauer:
Well, obviously my book and I say that not only because it’s mine, but also because I was really intentional about making it really accessible. I think a lot of times we recommend these big business books that’s like 200 pages, and you get the point after the first or second chapter, and then you’ve got 150 pages left and you’re like… My book is very short. It takes a lot of really complex concepts and breaks them down in a super understandable way.
So I cite within the book, Dr. Valerie Young’s research, and I mentioned her earlier. She is a phenomenal educator about imposter feelings. She’s one of the most cited researchers about imposter feelings after the original two. So her work, she’s a great follow on LinkedIn, if you’re into LinkedIn,
I also talk about it on LinkedIn all the time. And so if you are interested in the perspective of somebody who has been in housing and who’s worked in higher ed, you’re always welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn as well.
Crystal Lay:
Thank you. Those are really great. We will get that added to the show notes. I am so glad that you were able to join me today and talk about this really neat topic, that 82% of us experience, and you are now also providing a really cool tool for people to work through for themselves. And you’ve given me a lot to think about, particularly as I think about how I want to move forward with my team. So, thank you for joining me today, AJ.
AJ Lauer:
It’s absolutely a pleasure, Crystal. Thank you for having me; Dr. lay.
Crystal Lay:
You got me. I’m like, no. All right, and thanks for joining us on this episode of Res Ed Chat. If you have an idea of a topic or a person that you would like us to have on the show, please let us know by reaching out to Roompact. Take care.
