In this episode of ResEdChat, join Noah and Nick Stanford, Senior Academic Advisor at Miami University’s College of Engineering and Computing to talk about RA supervision and the concept of “challenge and support” as it relates to that conversation. They discuss challenging RAs to grow as individuals and people, the intricacies of that work, share impactful stories, and offer practical advice for helping RAs not only be successful at their jobs but to grow as students and people as well.
Guest: Nick Stanford (he/him), Senior Academic Advisor, Miami University College of Engineering and Computing
Host: Noah Montague
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About ResEdChat
Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast is a platform to showcase people doing great work and talk about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. If you have a topic idea for an episode, let us know!
Transcript:
Noah Montague:
So, welcome back to Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast, the platform to showcase people doing great work and talk about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. So, my name is Noah Montague. I use he/him/his pronouns, and today I’m going to be your host. I like to say that I’m a storyteller by trade. Storytelling is very important to me in my work. And I love to center the stories of college students and educators in our field, which is really what brings me to today’s topic and this podcast in general, getting to be a part of this space.
So, today we are going to be talking about supervision and working with resident assistants, community assistants, RAs, CAs, all of the different acronyms that your schools use, whichever one it is. But I’ve found myself thinking a lot about this topic lately, given everything that goes into supervision, giving a lot of things happening in our field at the moment and how higher education is changing, how our students are changing and just thinking about supervision as it comes to working with our students and creating space for them to develop as well as learn and work in that space.
So, when it comes to working with students, many of us are familiar with this term, challenge and support, which is also what we named this episode. But when we think about RAs, this term can be a little bit more complicated than maybe when we’re working with a typical student. Not only are RA students who are learning and growing as people, but they’re also employees under the literal and figurative exact same roof, in that they work where they live. So, thinking about that and talking about this topic, today’s guest is a friend and colleague that I met all the way back in 2019. I realized that recently, that we met a while ago in 2019, right? But we met all the way back in 2019, when I was a graduate assistant-
Nick Stanford:
In the before times, dude.
Noah Montague:
It was a long time ago. But I was a graduate assistant when I met today’s guest, and now I am privileged to call him a friend and a mentor and just a human that I have an utmost respect for. So, I’m going to let our guest introduce ourselves today to start us off.
Nick Stanford:
Man, you know what? Dude.
Noah Montague:
I threw up a little bit too much there.
Nick Stanford:
Oh, man. I wasn’t ready for that. All right, y’all. So, hi. My name is Nick Stanford. I use he/him pronouns. I am a, you could say, a recovering residence life professional. But currently I work as a senior academic advisor. I made the shift from residence life to academic advising a few years ago. But yeah, I worked in residence life for, gosh, since 2017… Between 2017 and 2021. So, four years. Felt like forever, but thanks, COVID. But yes. What else do I need? Or what else do you need?
Noah Montague:
No, that’s good. Thank you for introducing yourself.
Nick Stanford:
Of course.
Noah Montague:
But we’re going to hop right into it then, just to start us off with this conversation. As I mentioned today, we’re going to be talking about RA supervision and challenge and support really, as this guideline in that work and that practice. But whenever we’re talking about a phrase or a term that maybe other folks don’t know, or if we’re just starting with a topic, I like to make sure that I define it both for students, for staff, just in general. So, Nick, I would love if you could just give us your definition, your own words of this topic of challenge and support to start us out.
Nick Stanford:
Sure, sure. At one level, it’s very self-explanatory, right? So, you’re challenging… So, a student or a person, anybody, comes to you with something and they’re asking for your advice or they’re asking for support in any way, shape or form. So, the challenge component comes in when they might want to, they are kind of on the fence about doing something uncomfortable or something that they’re scared of, for example. So, challenging them, “Hey, do the thing that scares you and,” this is where the support comes in, “And I’m here to help you out throughout that entire process.” Right? I am here to be your backup just in case you need me. So, that’s a very general…
Challenge and support is very hard to put into one definition, because it’s also very contextual. But yeah, when it comes to… Start by challenging. The way I do it in my practice, start by challenging somebody to do something that scares them, in their own comfort zone or that’s also in their realm of comfort zone. But then also letting them know and also showing up to support them or letting them know that you’re going to support them and showing up to support them throughout that whole process.
Noah Montague:
Yeah, I like a lot of what you talked about, particularly with showing up for them in that space, because it’s one thing to issue to quite literally issue a challenge to a student, in a space that they want to grow, that they’re looking to grow in. But it’s another one just to do that and then not be there, as they’re trying to figure that out. And I think that really is where we fit in in that work and what our role is. It’s not just, Hey, go do this thing and then you kind of disappear after the fact.
Nick Stanford:
Have fun.
Noah Montague:
And of course, that has its place, as students graduate and figuring out their next steps in that space, but while they’re quite literally living with us, we’re still there. So, I think a lot about that. So, I love that definition and the way that you go about it. But I think another thing that you spoke about is this idea of, it’s contextual. Challenge and support is very easy to think about in it’s two words, that we understand what they mean, pretty simply and in Layman’s terms, but it is very contextual in the work that we do. So, why do you think this concept is so important in the supervision of resident assistants in particular? Let’s apply that context to the conversation that we’re having.
Nick Stanford:
Yeah, for sure. So, I would venture a guess that, not a single one of those RAs has been an RA before. It’s at least, in their first, when they’re a first time RA. You’re never hired as a new RA for having previous RA experience. Almost never. We can go there. So, that in and of itself, with them having that first challenge of this new leadership opportunity and then showing them support, that starts with an offer letter that starts with a, hey, welcome to the team, and a spring training email or a spring training meeting. And then training happens, like the actual training in August happens and then move in. And they are constantly hit with challenges over and over and over again, whether they’re new or a returner. And then you as the supervisor have to show up for them the way that they want you to show up for them. And that’s a whole other thing, is that RAs don’t… No two RAs necessarily want you to support them the same way that you support another RA. Right?
Noah Montague:
Exactly.
Nick Stanford:
Because newsflash, right? We’re all different people, so we all have different needs. But yes. So, challenge and support for in the context of supervising RAs is incredibly important, as their supervisor, because they’re also challenging and supporting their peers when they have to hold them accountable. Or maybe do a program where not everybody is going to necessarily jive with the idea or something like that.
Noah Montague:
Yeah, definitely. I think that something that stood out to me in what you said, again there is, you applied even further contextual basis to this term that we’ve already established has a lot of context to it. And that every single student that we’re working with, in this case, every RA, expects different things, needs different things, needs to be supported in different ways, which then implies they need to be challenged in different ways as well. With my own staff recently, I’ve been thinking a lot about the way that I give feedback and what that looks like in space. Because I have one RA that prefers very, very, very direct feedback and one that I’m very aware I have to sneak it in, in different places, and your nods are making me think that you’ve had to deal with something pretty similar.
Nick Stanford:
Yup.
Noah Montague:
But that feedback is huge as well, because that is the space that we get to help RAs grow, largely as employees, of course, but also as individuals, because we’re trying to help them grow as people and in that space, but that employee aspect is where things get a little bit more complicated, of course, with them, because our typical student doesn’t work for us. We’re just helping them grow. So, I’ve been thinking about that a lot, and I think that kind brings me pretty great to my next question for you. What are some practical ways that supervisors can challenge RAs to grow, while still providing them with that effective support?
Nick Stanford:
Sure, sure. So, I think it starts with <> I don’t know if we can use that. Do we need copyright? We’ll have the editors get back to you on that. But, I think it starts with that first one-on-one and learning how they want to grow. Because again, every RA is going to be different. So, part of my supervisory strategy or strategies and practices, have been based around growth and individual RA growth and how they want to maximize their time in the role.
That was always one of the first things I asked them was, what do you want out of this? And then I would do a follow-up throughout the semester like, Hey, how’s it going so far with? What do you want to get out of it? Where do you need support with that? And then at the end of the first semester, then we do a summative thing, because you’re not going to get everything that you want out of the position in your first semester doing it. So then, second semester comes around and I say, Okay, this is what we did last semester, this is what you did last semester. I’m very proud of you. This is where you may have fallen short.
And depending on how they receive feedback, I phrase it in a different way. But this is where I feel like you could improve. These are some extra areas that you can work on, that kind of thing. Now knowing that, what you’ve done well, what you can polish, and then what you still need to work on, what do you want to get out of this semester? And then, working with them through those goals and working through how they want to get there. And a really good example was, one of my RAs, this was 2019, 2018. The measurement of time is a social construction. Time itself is [inaudible 00:12:20]. The measurement of it, we made that up.
Anyway, philosophical debates aside. One of my RAs, it was her very first year being an RA. So, probably this was 2019, still the before times, we’re getting to that point. But anyway, I digress. She really wanted to work on conflict management. That’s something that she wanted to… She was a psych major, she wanted to learn how to excel at different flavors of conflict management and resolution [inaudible 00:12:58], resolution practices and those kinds of things. So, I had just gotten back from a conference where I learned… It was a conference all about restorative justice. Love restorative justice practices. So I said to RA, “Hey, you want to learn more about how to do this? RJ is cool. RJ is great. So, what if we tried that with a group of your residents, who just so happened to actively despise each other and no one knows why.”
So, the RA and I, we did some… I gave her some materials and said, “Hey, here are the introductory things on what you need to know. And then, what we are going to do together is, we’re going to set everything up. We’re going to schedule things, and you and I are going to plan out how this…” Not mediation. In restorative justice, it’s called a circle. So, everybody sits in a circle. So, we got together and we were like, I said, okay, we’re going to plan out how the circle’s going to work, who’s going to facilitate what, so on and so forth.
And then we did it. We did the darn thing, and she did most of it, because she felt comfortable doing it, and it was great. It was awesome. Sure, I mean, I stepped in whenever she needed help or anything like that, or if things got really out of hand, because they got really out of hand. But yeah, we were there. We were doing the whole thing, and then we did a debrief afterward and… How do I tie this off? Or how do I tie this up in a bow? We did it, and scene. But yeah, we did the darn thing, and that’s something that she wanted to do. I said, “Great. Let’s learn how to do more conflict mediation, because your corridor needs it.” And we did it. So, we did it the way that she wanted to, which was awesome.
Noah Montague:
I love that example for a couple of reasons. One being that you empowered this RA to take control of the situation the way that they wanted to and then provided them with those resources to do it. So, I think that goes back a lot to what we’ve been talking about already, because you not only offered space for this person to grow in a way that they very specifically told you they wanted to, but helped them get there and stepped in as needed and created that time. I actually have an example that I’m thinking about in this moment as well, that is also restorative justice based as well.
We had, a few years ago, an incident of pretty significant vandalism in my residence hall, which could be a podcast in and of itself, talking about vandalism, of course. But one of my RAs came to me and he talked about the issue and he went, “There has to be something that we can do related to this problem because it’s getting out of hand. Students are not feeling safe in the community and the way that we want them to be. What should we do? Should we have them sit down? Should we talk to them about it? Because it seems that our ongoing communication via email and other places isn’t working, in the way that we wanted it to.” So, this was an RA coming to me, being like, what we have done so far is not working, which in and of itself for this individual was growth, significantly from what I’ve seen in the past.
And, for a lack of a better way to put it, Nick, that was a student staff member telling me that he wanted to do more work.
Nick Stanford:
Yeah, it’s wild when they do that.
Noah Montague:
Because he saw a need for it in the community. He felt safe asking me for that help. He felt safe coming to me to ask for that help, to figure something out. So, I then provided the same thing that you did, those materials and restorative justice and helped guide him through how to have this conversation with our students. And we sat down, did our circle, had a conversation with everybody. Everyone shared how they felt about it, shared their opinions about the matter. No one was to blame, no one was cast aside, everyone was invited, everyone was expected to be there.
But we had that conversation, the vandalism stopped. And that would not have happened without my RA stepping up feeling safe to advocate for the community and for himself to try something new. And that is another place that this is so nuanced and different than working with a typical student, because that was a staff member choosing to challenge themselves in a different way, which I saw in your story also, was someone choosing to engage in that challenge. So, maybe that’s another place that this can differ pretty extensively for resident assistants to a typical student, because maybe they don’t choose that challenge in the same way. I don’t know if you have a thought there.
Nick Stanford:
I mean, let’s not say that your regular college student doesn’t challenge themselves.
Noah Montague:
Oh, I agree. Oh, I fully agree. I would never say that.
Nick Stanford:
But yeah, I feel like that is a really good point because, being an RA is such a very, it’s such different environment. I was never an RA, so I don’t really know, I’ve only supervised them. But yeah, I think that feels like a whole other podcast. Where do RAs, where does the initiative come from and why is the initiative there? So, join us next time for RA initiatives.
Noah Montague:
Maybe we will come back. We’ll see. But, right now. But for now, I think that, what you talked about kind of, just lines me up so well. So, thank you for that. Within this conversation of safety that we were having and RAs feeling safe enough to be challenged, because for a student to be challenged effectively in a way that’s actually going to help them grow, they have to feel safe with us to accept that challenge. So, I wonder if you can speak a little bit to how supervisors maybe can create that environment, where an RA feels safe enough to be challenged.
Nick Stanford:
I think it’s got a lot to do with shared vulnerability and transparency. So, framing, when you need to challenge your RA on something, when you need to give them critical feedback. So, let’s look at it from that lens, because challenge and support, that also includes giving somebody critical feedback and showing them where they can improve. So, if you’re transparent in that conversation and you lay the groundwork and say, Hey, this is what this one-on-one is about today. So, I have noticed, from my perspective, this is what’s going on. It’s very similar to how I do conduct conversations or things like that. So, this is what I’m seeing from my perspective. So, not that I’m, again, let’s, quick sidebar, I’m not adjudicating an RA’s… It’s not up to me to adjudicate an RA’s job performance in a one-on-one. That’s completely separate thing. And we’re back.
So, blame the groundwork of, this is what everything is like from my perspective, this is what I am seeing. Talk to me about what you are seeing about how things are going from your point of view and framing it in a way that… I don’t always lead with, you’re not getting fired because we’re having this conversation. I want to have this conversation because I believe in you and because I know that you’re a good RA, because I don’t hire bad RA. And because I believe in you and because I think that you are good at your job, this is what I’m seeing and I want to talk about it. So, giving them that, laying down that. And it also comes with weeks and months of building rapport and things like that, to where, as a supervisor, I can also feel comfortable, creating that challenge and giving that feedback.
Because, if this is your first week with this RA, then it’s doubling, it’s uncomfortable for everybody involved. Regardless, it’s uncomfortable for everybody involved, but without the rapport that you might have with a returner or with somebody who’s like, it’s May and you’ve worked with this person since August and something like that. So, I think, laying groundwork and laying out intention of the conversation is incredibly important when you’re having those kinds of conversations. And letting them know, Hey, we make mistakes, nothing’s ever going to be perfect, everything is made up and the points don’t matter. But while we’re here, let’s talk about how we can make an adjustment.
Noah Montague:
Yeah, I like that a lot too, because I actually go about this very similarly. I recently had a conversation with an RA, where I framed it in, “I want to give you feedback in this moment, out of respect for who you are, for the work you’re putting in for the growth that I’ve seen in you. This thing that I am noticing, is not who I’ve watched you grow to be. So, let’s talk about that.” And his response was, “You are 100% right. I will do better. Here’s how I’m going to do better.” And since then, he has. So, that is really cool to hear that we go about it in such a similar way, but especially when giving feedback and thinking about that as a framework for inviting RAs to grow as individuals and as employees. I think that’s a cool place within the context as well.
Nick Stanford:
I always told my RAs, at the beginning of every fall training, when we had our first in-hall after, when we were laying out expectations, right?
Noah Montague:
Yeah.
Nick Stanford:
This was our very first meeting where we were all together. I would always tell them that my bare minimum expectation of you, is that you care. If you don’t care about your job, if you don’t give a shit, that’s noticeable. Can I say shit on here? Is it going to be beeped out? Am I going to be beeped? But, if you don’t give a care, that’s fine, that’s okay, but maybe this job isn’t right for you. Or we can find a way that you can care. What do you care about? And we can have that conversation. But in the meantime, my bare minimum expectation is that you care about this job. And if I start noticing that the care starts to slip, then we’re going to start talking. We’re going to have a conversation.
Noah Montague:
And setting those ground rules and that expectation from the beginning, sets them up for success there too. You’re setting that expectation for what your support and what your type of support is going to look like, so that they know, so it’s not a surprise later on. But I think that also kind of gets me pretty well into our next question. And I think that this question really comes from, I feel I’d be doing a disservice to this conversation if we didn’t really talk about identity and delved into that space a little bit, as we’re having this conversation.
Nick Stanford:
In this socio-political climate, come on.
Noah Montague:
We’re going to talk about it. But, in thinking about this model of supervision, how do you think that it intersects with identity development and inclusion work, particularly when we’re talking about working with RAs from marginalized backgrounds?
Nick Stanford:
For sure. Allyship is important and making sure that you show up for your RAs regardless. I have worked with RAs from across the political spectrum, I’ve worked with RAs across gender spectrums, across racial spectrums, and just making sure that they know that, regardless of their views, regardless of how they live, regardless of who they are or where they come from or things like that, that you’re showing up for them. Because the bare minimum expectation of care also applies to you, the supervisor, right?
Because, if you don’t show up, and if you don’t build that trust or create that trust or have any level of trust whatsoever, then you’re not doing your job. Like, what are you doing? So, for example, I had a… One of my RAs, my very first year at Midwest public University. We all went to grad school. But he’s a staunch member of a political party that I don’t belong to. And that was something that I made sure that… We would talk about it and we would have, because I was a political science minor when I was in college, I was an anthropology major when I was in college. I know that we can have intersections of where things don’t exist, where things don’t necessarily match up. But making sure that he felt supported because he needed that, because this was also his first year as an RA.
So I needed to show up for him as his supervisor, even though we had a very big disagreement at one point. And one of his co-RAs, she and I also had a very big disagreement at one point for a very similar reason and I made sure that I… There was a time I got a text from somebody else on the quad or from one of the other RDs on the quad, who said, “Hey, is this your RA? She is in a group chat saying some things that I have concerns about for her mental health.” And I dropped what I was doing and literally ran across campus to knock on her door and make sure that she was okay. It was after the argument. So, RA, if you’re listening, hi, I hope you’re doing well. And RA is plural. Hi, I hope you’re doing well.
But anyway, but yeah, creating that space where they know that, you as the supervisor are going to show up for them is really important. Because if you don’t show up for them, they’re not going to show up for their residents, right? It’s reciprocal. So, do the darn thing. Show up for your people.
Noah Montague:
I love this idea of showing up as a method of both challenge and support, in the way that you talked about it, because you framed it as both, pretty explicitly within that answer. And I think that’s super cool and interesting. For me, recently, I’ve been making efforts to show up very specifically in ways that my RAs want me to in that work, which I think goes back to the nuance and the context and RAs need different things and want different things. And when we’re talking about identity, our staff will want different things from us and need different types of support and different types of things from us as supervisors. So, recently, actually just a couple days ago, I went with one of my staff members to our campus’ Afro Gala for African and Black students on our campus. And that was my first time going to this event, and they invited me to go, and I sat with him the whole time.
And it was a beautiful event that I probably would not have gone to, not out of not wanting to go, but out of wanting to be respectful of a space that I was not interpreting as being for [inaudible 00:30:34] in there. But being invited to that space and showing up in a way that, my staff very specifically was telling me they wanted me to show up in. They have now asked me 2, 3, 4 times since, how my experience was, what I got out of it. And we’ve created, I feel like a further connection from that as well, or a further point of trust, to use your own terminology and your own language that, I’m watching be beneficial as, now this person is more willing to talk to me and engage with me. Not that they weren’t already, but I watched that matter in a way that I knew that it would, but you don’t see it until it happens after the fact.
So, I love that example. And you’re centering on care and showing up within that. But here is maybe a more nitty-gritty different question within there, but as with any kind of model, when we’re talking about development, when we’re talking about theory, things can have limits and or spaces where maybe they don’t apply or maybe we should be thinking about something else or challenging the very things that we’re talking about. But I guess then, Nick, do you think that this model has limits when it comes to it? Where are they when it comes to working with resident assistants, because they are employees as well, but what are you thinking about as far as maybe limitations that this supervision model might have?
Nick Stanford:
I mean, with every supervision model, it’s not perfect, but I’m trying to think of, off the dome, I can’t really… Because that’s another thing too, is that it’s contextual. And maybe that’s the limit. Maybe that’s the limit, is that it’s, you think about theories and how they’re… And I haven’t read the… Challenge and support was Magolda or was Baxter Magolda?
Noah Montague:
It was Sanford, actually.
Nick Stanford:
Sanford. It’s been a long time. When I was in grad school, I barely read. Moving On. I am more of a practice to… Rather than a scholar to practice or scholarship to practice, I’m more of a practice to practice person, anyway. But with a lot of these theories or a lot of higher ed and educational psychology theories and things like that, there’s going to be context that’s applied. I feel like this one in particular, to me, feels very contextual. And because there’s no written… Like, there is a written framework, again, I haven’t read it, I just do it. But, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. Because, again, it’s not perfect, but at the moment, off the dome, can’t think of anything.
Noah Montague:
That’s fair. And I wonder if that goes into the very answer that you gave being that it’s contextual. It is designed to be applied to different situations very purposely. It is designed in a way to be simple enough to adapt in different spaces as we’re talking about, how do we challenge and how do we support, and how do we combine the two in working with folks. Which I think sets me up for my last question in, what advice might you offer to some new supervisors, some new resident side professionals coming into the field and implementing this framework into their day to day?
Nick Stanford:
Yeah. Going back to the ethic of care, I’ll hit you with another sound bite. So, I took a college teaching class when I was in grad school. That one I did read for, but… I read in grad school, it just wasn’t… I read the articles, not the textbooks, anyway. But, if you taught me in grad school, I’m sorry.
My college teaching professor hit us with a… The good Dr. Barb Licklider was our college teaching professor, and she hit us with what we all called Barbisms. And this is one that stuck with me forever and that will stick with me forever, is that they don’t care… They, the umbrella they, they don’t care what you know, unless they know that you care.
And that has been my motto when it comes to approaching anything with my job, with my life, wherever applicable. When it comes to supervision, especially. Your RAs or the people who you are supervising, will not care what you tell them, they will not care what context you have, what information you have, until they know that you care about them as human people. So, my advice, and one that I still, when I talk to RAs that have graduated or who I no longer supervise, they often tell me, that part of… They’ll tell me that… Sorry.
They’ll often tell me that some of their favorite parts of our one-on-ones, were when I would ask them how they’re doing as a human person. Because, we’ll talk about the business stuff. We’ll get that out of the way, not necessarily as quickly as we can, but we’ll get it out of the way when we can. And when there’s time left, I always ask them, so how are you doing as a human person? Fundamentally, we’ve talked about how you’re doing as a student, how you’re doing as an employee, how are you as a human person? So, my advice would be to put that into your list of questions, a regular list of questions for your RAs, for your staff who you’re supervising. Make sure to check in with them on a human level. Because working in higher education right now, again, in this socio-political climate, my God, we need support and our folks need support, our students need support, and our student employees need support. So, show up for them, check in with them as human people and give a shit, care. So, that’s what I got.
Noah Montague:
And I love, again, that you center with this idea of care, because my quote, my advice was going to be very similar. My supervisor in grad school, Andy [inaudible 00:37:56], always liked to say, that if we… I know you know him, great guy.
Nick Stanford:
What a pal.
Noah Montague:
What a pal.
Nick Stanford:
Certified pal.
Noah Montague:
But he always liked to say that, “If we show up in our work, caring and showing students that we care, showing our staff that we care, we’re already doing 90% of the work.” That additional 10% of the work, we can train everything else, we can get there. But 90% of the work being care, that has always stuck with me and that will never not stick with me, in this work and as we go into it, especially in working with resident assistants. Nick, I think that wraps up our time together today. Thank you so, so, so much for joining me. I hope you had a good time.
Nick Stanford:
I did. It was great.
Noah Montague:
Yeah, I’m so happy. And of course, thank you all for listening and joining us today on this episode of ResEdChat. If you have an idea or a topic or person that you’d like us to have on the show, please let us know by reaching out to Roompact. But for now, thank you all and stay safe. Bye everyone.
