ResEdChat Ep 70: Cultivating Connection: Addressing Loneliness in Housing

Crystal Lay:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Roompact’s ResEdChat, where we highlight cool people who do cool things and talk about cool stuff in residence life and college student housing. I’m your host, crystal Lay. I use a she/her series pronouns. I’m really excited about our topic today. I think about us being housing professionals and we talk about community resources and transition when we think about our students that live on campus. However, we don’t explicitly really talk about the idea of being lonely or loneliness and how that might come up for our students who live with us. And we have a guest today that is going to lead us through what is loneliness and some ways that we can talk about that and think about that when we support our students who live with us. I’ll have our guest introduce himself.

Carl Dindo:
Morning Crystal. Thank you for having me. My name is Dr. Carl Dindo. I use the he/him pronouns. I’m the director of Northern Arizona University’s counseling services department, and really happy to be here with you and happy to connect with you to talk about loneliness.

Crystal Lay:
Thank you for making time. I can only imagine how busy you are being a mental health professional and a clinician. So thank you for being here, Carl.

Carl Dindo:
Thanks.

Crystal Lay:
I want to talk to you first about… So I’ve heard and I’ve read a little bit about the Surgeon General report. There’s an advisory that says that loneliness is a public health crisis. Could you define loneliness and then share what concerns or issues that maybe you had as a mental health professional when you heard that advisory?

Carl Dindo:
Absolutely, yes. It’s such a big question, and I’ll try to be as concise as possible, but I think I’ll start with just maybe what is loneliness? Because I think talking about loneliness and even discussing it can sometimes be challenging and hard because it’s a universal human emotion. It’s a feeling that so many of us have, and I think Dr. Murthy, US Surgeon General’s official declaration of this as a public health crisis is so important because it allows us to maybe start having some really important conversations around this. But what’s interesting is I’ve become really interested in this over the last year or so and been doing a deep dive into the research. And what I found is actually there’s been a lot of people who have been talking about this and researching this and understanding the multidimensional impacts of loneliness for people and communities for decades now.
And so it was really cool to learn that yes, this official declaration from the US Surgeon General is so important, but it’s actually been around for a long time and something that people have recognized is hugely impactful. And part of that is because it is, it’s a universal human experience. Feeling lonely is this emotion that many of us have. And I think it can sometimes be hard to identify where do we feel this? When do we feel this? And so I think one of the things that I read that I really appreciated and I think helps to frame out a little bit and help define it, is that if you think of loneliness as a subjective emotional experience and something like feeling alone or isolated is more of the objective state of being. That if we are alone, we are by ourselves perhaps or we are isolated. That’s an objective state. Feeling lonely might result from feeling alone. And so that’s the subjective emotional state.
But then there’s also, to complicate it a little bit further, there’s also the sense of solitude. And that is actually an intentional state of seeking being alone or isolated. And that many people actually do that to feel almost more comfort in being alone. And so talking about loneliness is hard because I think it carries a lot of stigma. It’s in many ways pathologized as something that’s really bad, but in many ways it’s actually because it’s so typical and normal for human beings to have this, that understanding that sometimes even if we’re alone, we’re not lonely. And that sometimes, even if we’re not alone, we can still feel lonely. And so it’s really hard sometimes to understand it and to determine, okay, when does somebody feel lonely? But I think, Crystal, the thing that’s really I think powerful about this is as we’ve been learning more and more about this, we’ve learned that loneliness is not an all or nothing experience. It’s not that I have people in my life, I have relationships, so I’m not lonely. We realize that if I’m just alone, then I’m lonely. It is far more complicated and complex.

Crystal Lay:
That is really interesting, Carl. And even thinking about putting together this topic or connecting with you, I felt some nervousness. How do you talk about being lonely? And then I like how you talked about you can choose to be in solitude, and I’m an introvert, and so I like my alone time, and I also don’t like being alone or being lonely. And so I think you talking about the different ways to describe it and the objective versus subjective ways of describing it or feeling it or the act of, or choosing. There’s a lot of pieces to unpack there, so thank you for that.
So how would you think about assessing loneliness? Are there signs that we should look for in students that says, oh, that person might be lonely?

Carl Dindo:
Yeah, this is such an important question too, because working in higher ed and consulting with so many people about how do we know if the students here at NAU, for instance, are lonely? It’s so hard to determine that because as I’m sure you can appreciate Crystal, I know I have certainly felt lonely, but then I kind of navigate my world in a way that I don’t want to show people that I feel lonely. Feeling lonely and then communicating that and acknowledging that is really hard. There’s a lot of shame and stigma that can with that. So the idea of how do we know if students are feeling lonely? I think it’s really hard to tell, and it’s really going to be based on the individual and who we’re interfacing with.
And so I think UCLA, for instance, actually has a loneliness scale that they’ve developed so that you can actually use a more formal assessment tool to kind of determine how lonely might somebody feel. But I think on a day-by-day, case-by-case basis, it’s really hard to know. And so sometimes I think the way that we can assess loneliness is really just have a conversation with somebody. And there’s a lot of research out there to say that there’s all these examples of people who talk about all these other difficult, challenging mental health concerns and feelings, things like symptoms of depression or anxiety or trauma. And even as you’re having conversations around these things, loneliness seems to be this underlying golden thread that exists from all of these things, these concerns that show up.
So in some ways, even if we’re talking with students about, “Hey, how are you feeling? How are you doing?” And they’re talking about things like anxiety or depression, very common concerns for college students. Also, understanding that loneliness could be a huge component of that. I think assessing might be that we just have to ask some really maybe tough but personal questions about, “Hey, are you feeling lonely on top of these other things?” And so it’s about building a relationship and maybe just having a conversation as a sort of starting point, really.

Crystal Lay:
So if there’s a student that I see sitting at dinner alone all the time or often, should I assume automatically that student is lonely? It could also be solitude, but perhaps I can sit down as you’re suggesting and say, “Hey, here’s what I noticed. How are you doing? Have you made connections?” That feels like maybe that could be a good entry into engaging with that student maybe?

Carl Dindo:
I think that’s a beautiful example and a beautiful way of describing that entry is just to start a conversation. I think fundamentally, one of the things about loneliness, the researchers have kind of talked about that a lot of our own loneliness isn’t just about our relationships with other people, it’s also about our relationships with ourselves.
And so sometimes I think even at the core of us feeling lonely, and I know certainly this is true for me, is that at times where I felt lonely, I sometimes felt even disconnected from who I am, what’s going on for me, my feelings. I mean, I think, having somebody come up and just initiate a conversation can even bring me back to, “Carl, how are you feeling about yourself? What’s going on for you?” Just checking in as you just talked about. I think that’s a great entree into, “Yeah, so how are you?” And then from that conversation determining like, “Hey, should I be checking in more about something like loneliness?” Or maybe this person seems like they’re in the best place ever because they’re in solitude and they’re enjoying that and they’re getting their needs met and recharging, and yeah. So I think that conversation is a great starting point to assess.

Crystal Lay:
And it’s great because you’re asking a question versus assuming. You’re going in, I don’t know what the outcome’s going to be, and I’m going to check on this human to just see how things are going.

Carl Dindo:
Absolutely. Yep, that curiosity is a [inaudible 00:09:08].

Crystal Lay:
I love that. Lead with curiosity. So thinking about housing professionals, let’s say we’ve identified this human is lonely or we’re going to have that conversation, what are some actions you think we can take as housing professionals? Because we’re not clinicians, that is not our expertise. We are referral agents. So what advice do you have for us thinking about the students who live with us?

Carl Dindo:
I mean, I think in some ways, Crystal, to circle back to what we were just talking about is as housing professionals, I think it’s understanding the value of that relationship building and that process. And by that I don’t mean, hey, let’s just put two people in a room together and they’re going to just eventually figure it out. I think sometimes it is about the exchange that happens in conversation.
Esther Perel who’s a world renowned psychotherapist always talks about the importance of small talk. I think small talk, especially since COVID and the pandemic is something that some of us feel like we’ve lost touch with a little bit and the art of small talk is something that’s really hard to do. But what we I think sometimes forget is that small talk is fundamental to building a bigger relationship, a better interaction and exchange with somebody. So even if it’s something small, just maybe checking in or just asking some other round-about questions to have those initial conversations with people can be really, really powerful.
And I think to what we were talking about a minute ago as well, is I think if you start to get a feel, my guess is housing professionals are in that field and working with people on the front lines because they are passionate about supporting students, being agents of referral as you put it. And so I think sometimes it is about feeling out a little bit of, “What is my intuition telling me here?”
Being that loneliness is such a universal human experience, so many of us can probably pull from some very deep empathy that we have because we’ve felt that before. We’ve experienced that before. And maybe we even had folks come and support us in really powerful ways. And so, yeah, it doesn’t take being a psychotherapist, a psychologist, a counselor to intervene and support people. I think sometimes it’s, hey, what is this shared human experience that we all have and what’s worked for me and what’s been helpful for me, and how do I use those skills and those experiences to connect with somebody else?

Crystal Lay:
I am terrible at small talk, Carl. I am so awkward. I’m so awkward. But I do have my three questions I keep in my head of, “How’s the weather? Where are you from?” So I think for folks who are listening or watching that are like, “Oh, I’m terrible with that,” I think there’s some things you can do to prep yourself or put in your toolkit to help you begin some of those conversations with folks.

Carl Dindo:
Absolutely.

Crystal Lay:
Just name me, I’m awkward. And that’s okay. And we’ve talked about this a little bit. You just talked about approaching a topic with empathy and compassion. What I wanted to talk to you about was transitioning into, let’s say we’re the helpers. We are the helpers. We’re helping our students, whether we’re professional staff or career staff or student staff. There could be potentially more shame, I don’t know, you tell me, in asking for help or saying, “Hey, I’m lonely.” Because we’re surrounded by so many people and that’s what you talked about earlier. There’s a perception I think of I am a helper. I’m surrounded by people. I’m well-connected. How do I go about sharing that I am lonely? And so do you think it’s possible to feel lonely with a lot of people? And then how do you work through that for yourself, coming to that realization of, “Oh, I’m lonely”?

Carl Dindo:
Oh, absolutely. God, yeah. And you asked some really, really important questions there, so I want to address those in maybe a systematic way here. But I think the first thing, can you be lonely in a crowd? I think absolutely. And a lot of the research that I’ve been able to come across, Dr. Jeremy Nobel, who is a primary care physician and also a community health practitioner out of Stanford, and even Dr. Murthy the Surgeon General, they both talk about different dimensions of loneliness. And I think that’s really important to understand is even going back to the idea of defining loneliness is there isn’t a singular experience of loneliness. And in fact, we can be in really fulfilling, rewarding relationships with partners or romantic significant others, we can have great community, we can have a great group of friends, we can still feel lonely.
And in many ways, those different dimensions of loneliness that exist for us, sometimes if we think of it, loneliness is a warning sign. It’s a sign within our body that some of our needs aren’t getting met. I’ve heard it described in research akin to thirst or hunger. It’s a physiological experience within your body that tells you something’s missing.
And loneliness, if we maybe start to think of it in that way, we pivot a little bit to thinking of loneliness as a warning sign, then we can start to look at where in my life might I be feeling this loneliness? Is it that, hey, I’ve got this great partner and the significant other, and so my intimate needs are being met. But maybe I don’t have a strong group of friends, and so maybe my social or relational needs aren’t being met. Or perhaps I’ve got those met, but I don’t really feel a sense of connection to a community. And so that feels like that’s a dimension where we can still feel lonely even with these other pieces in our life. And that’s important, I think, to just understand that it is so multidimensional. And so even going back to what are we assessing for and how are we having conversations is those are types of questions we can ask.
I think for those of us that might feel like talking about loneliness is deeply personal, there is this kind of ethos in American Western civilization where it’s like, pull yourself out by your bootstraps. Be independent. Individuation is really valued here. And so this idea of how do I ask for help, I think sometimes does bring a lot of shame. And so the recommendations I’ve read are really that we need to move away from that kind of culture of independence to a culture of connection. A culture that not only values people and interactions and relationships, but really where we’re prioritizing that over perhaps this idea of I can do it on my own.

Crystal Lay:
A culture of connection. That’s really powerful. And I like the questions that you went through, like okay, I might have this thing going for me, this thing, and then, oh, in this area I would like more of these things. And how do I go about finding them and getting connected and making that normalizing? You said loneliness is a universal thing. We all experience that at some point or to some capacity. And so naming it’s normal and it’s okay to ask for help. I like that a lot.
So we’ve talked about loneliness. What’s on the other side? What’s the opposite of loneliness? Is there an opposite?

Carl Dindo:
Well, I mean, I think a lot of people would talk about social connection, connection relationship. I mean, all of those things are maybe on the opposite side of loneliness, but I guess I don’t look at it necessarily as kind of the other side of a coin. I mean, I think these really do… They’re the same side of the coin. Really, that loneliness is such a relational, emotional experience that we typically won’t necessarily feel lonely without an absence of either a relationship to ourself or to others. And so it’s all kind of part of the same spectrum, if you will. But I do think there is value to thinking about, okay, so we understand loneliness is a public health crisis. We understand that the physiological, the medical, the psychological impacts of loneliness, especially chronic loneliness are profound.
Newer research, especially coming out, Dr. Murthy talks about this in his advisory, and other researchers have been talking about just the detrimental impacts of chronic loneliness are significant in terms of reducing even lifespan. And one of the classic, I think, metrics that they talk about is that chronically lonely people experience physiological impacts and medical impacts similar to people who smoke 15 cigarettes a day, and we know how detrimental smoking can be. And so loneliness is profound when it comes to just its impact for us. Understanding that, I think really it brings it to, so how do we combat that then? If we know it’s such a public health crisis, then how do we combat that? How do we work with systems, individuals, with organizations to figure out ways to promote social connection, to promote relationship?
And I think in some ways, Crystal, to promote an experience of discomfort like you were just talking about with small talk, I think the risk taking involved with being uncomfortable is huge. And I think there is a lot of health benefits, psychological benefits, relational benefits to being uncomfortable and getting back into that sort of tolerance of, “Ooh, I don’t feel good. I don’t like this. This is not my wheelhouse.” But understanding that this is for a greater good, this is about connecting, and then frankly, perhaps even connecting with ourselves in a more intentional way as well.

Crystal Lay:
Well, I should be really healthy Carl, let me tell you. No. So let’s say you wanted to do a program or event, or maybe this is something that your team does over in the counseling center that addresses loneliness. Is there a thing that you would recommend? Because I don’t know if you would put up a flyer or put something on social media saying, “Hey, come talk about loneliness with the counseling center.” Any recommendations for housing folks on if you wanted to go on a programmatic route-

Carl Dindo:
Sure.

Crystal Lay:
… to talk about this?

Carl Dindo:
Yeah, that’s a really important question. Again, what are kind of the tangible ways we can combat this? And we’re having conversations in the counseling center now about developing some workshops and outreach programs that will help to treat some of this. One of the ideas we have is creating kind of what we call IRL experiences, in real life experiences where people are asked to essentially separate or disconnect a little bit from their own technology for a little while and to engage in practicing small talk. I mean, even something like that I think can be from a programmatic standpoint, so beneficial to getting back to some basics.
But I think there’s other things that just keeping in mind are really important. We do know, and research supports just putting people in a room together doesn’t necessarily mean that, number one, they’re going to connect, and number two, that they won’t feel lonely in that room together. So I think it really is about taking advantage of and leveraging those opportunities for how do we build relationships? And I think some of that starts at an individual level. So from a programmatic standpoint or even maybe a systemic standpoint, I think a couple of the things that I’ve read and the recommendations I really gravitate to are how do you implement things like mindful practices into policies, procedures, protocols? How do you maybe incorporate that into events that Res Life might be hosting for residents in a certain hall? Because I think part of that, slowing things down, getting back in touch with ourselves will help us understand and maybe take stock of like, “Okay, where am I at? Am I feeling lonely, am I not?”
But it also allows us to take stock of that discomfort and to maybe intentionally challenge ourselves around some of that. So we can then maybe be in a place where we could lean into, “Hey, I’m going to take a risk. I’m going to engage in small talk with this person. I’m going to take advantage of an opportunity to sit with somebody that I don’t know in the dining hall.” But even beyond that, programmatically, I think it’s really important to name and talk about this universal experience of loneliness.
I think systems, understandably so, are so focused on the other side of the coin, the social connection side that we’re just kind of we want to put people in a room together and in some ways think, well, that’ll do it. That’ll get people to connect. And if that doesn’t happen, we feel like, oh, we’re not sure what else to do. So maybe if we pivot away from that idea to just, yeah, how do I create opportunities for people to be brave? To have courageous conversations as Brené Brown would say. I think the idea of leaning into that discomfort, finding and taking advantage of opportunities for vulnerability. But really none of that can happen, Crystal, if we as perhaps leaders, administrators, people modeling this… If we’re not willing to engage in that ourselves at our own levels, but also with our students, I think it’s going to be really hard for students to see the value of that.
So ultimately, that’s a really long-winded answer to, I think it’s got to start with us, and then we create that culture through modeling, through demonstrating the value of it, and also demonstrating the value of the risk-taking and discomfort that we can move through to find connection.

Crystal Lay:
So we have to show folks how to be in community, how to build relationships. I think there was something lost in COVID where we were just afraid of people or we started to just communicate even more so in a screen or on a screen. And now it’s with something lost, I know there’s learning loss that happens, and I wonder if that learning loss extends into relationship building. And so how do we model that, as you said, and provide these opportunities for people to engage?
I went to this speed friend thing the other night. It was called speed dating. It wasn’t dating, but it was finding new friends. I was terrified, but I was like, “I’m going to go. I’m going to be uncomfortable.” What I liked about the event, Carl, is that they actually had little cards with three questions on there to get you started. I think those are some of the things to help people begin to like, “How do I do this thing? I’m going to try it.” That’s the first part. You have to choose, you want to engage. And then second, what are some little helpful things we can do to begin to help folks begin to start building those relationships or having conversations? So that’s really neat. Yeah.

Carl Dindo:
I love that idea, Crystal. And I think that addresses one of the things Brené Brown and Esther Perel just actually did a podcast where they talked about if you think of communication skills and even something like small talk as being these muscles that before COVID, I think in many ways we were almost forced to flex a little bit more often and engage with, and in some ways they can become atrophied when we have these maybe other mediums of communication or these ways to avoid having to flex those muscles. And so in a way, having something to help us get back into exercising those things is fantastic. And I love that idea of even having some simple prompts so you don’t have to deal with like, “What am I going to ask and how am I going to do this?” It sort of gives you that so you can start to exercise the muscle.

Crystal Lay:
This is great, and I’ve been so vulnerable today. I think I’m done. I’ve shared all my small talk awkwardness though. So if there are folks who are wanting to learn more about this, you’ve shared some great resources, you share some research pieces, you’ve talked about this UCLA loneliness skill and also gave some great programmatic opportunities or ideas. If someone is like, “I need more, I want to learn more about supporting students who are experiencing loneliness and/or for myself, I want to check in with myself, I want to reflect,” is there a tool, a resource, a book, something that you would recommend to folks?

Carl Dindo:
Oh, yeah. I have so many. Like I said, a bit of a deep dive. So I’ll try to be brief and highlight maybe the ones that I keep returning to, I think as I’m studying this. I mean, if you just Google on YouTube loneliness, there are so many TED talks that are pretty profound. Again, people have been studying this for years. And so I think there’s a lot of really powerful TED talks that I’ve just gone through, and I’ve watched a lot of those in preparation for a couple different things I’m doing, including this podcast.
A couple of books that I would certainly recommend. Dr. Murthy, the US Surgeon General did come out with this advisory in 2023, but actually in April of 2020, he came out with a book called Together, and it was all about essentially leading up to I think the advisory of in the public health crisis declaration, but really saying, this loneliness exists, and he’s recognizing it as America’s doctor essentially. He’s saying, yeah, this is out there and there’s some really great information, a lot of data about the impacts of this, the multidimensional approaches to this, but also I think systematically provides some recommendations for what organizations can do, what individuals can do. So I think that’s really valuable.
I mentioned Dr. Jeremy Nobel earlier. He’s also someone that I’ve come across in the last six months where he has a book called Project UnLonely. And it’s essentially a lot of the similar research, but he really takes a slightly different approach where he talks about the power of creative expression and art to help facilitate connection and to develop relationships with others and ourselves. And in fact, his book was transformative in some ways of highlighting the ways that art as a medium can activate certain parts of our neurophysiology that are activated when we’re interacting with people. And so in some ways, even as a more tangible way of combating loneliness, the idea of engaging in art or creative expression can be powerful. And then obviously doing that with other people even more.
And then I think I mentioned Brené Brown, and it’s hard to talk about things like vulnerability, connection without talking about Brené. But Brené Brown I think wrote a book called Braving the Wilderness, and this is a few years ago. But even that, I think going back to that after many years was really powerful. So I think those are great resources.
And then obviously the Surgeon General’s Advisory that came out in 2023 is fantastic and really builds on his book, Together, but I think has just a lot of great information. And so just from a starting point again, and there’s so much else out there. There’s a lot of podcasts, there’s a lot of articles, so there’s a lot out there.

Crystal Lay:
And you just made me think of two additional programmatic ideas as you were talking about the art piece. Those paint nights you do in the communities, you get together and you paint, or even creating a group playlist where you share your music with each other. I think there’s some really easy accessible ways to really connect with other folks in whatever way you feel most comfortable engaging. So this has been really fantastic. Is there anything else that you want to share about this topic before we close our time together?

Carl Dindo:
Well, actually, you just made me think of something, Crystal. I think is hugely important, but also often overlooked, which is a lot of the research also points to that if we’re feeling both isolated and lonely, one of the best ways to feel reconnected not only to ourselves but really connect to other folks, is to actually engage in service both to others and other communities. I think that act of giving service we know therapeutically has profound impacts on our mental health and can make us feel fulfilled in certain ways, and also feel like we’re part of something larger than even ourselves, which I think is a sense of connection and maybe a more existential way.
But there’s also, I think this idea of giving back to others and serving others that I think has also profound impacts on how we feel and the connection we feel to communities, individuals, and even ourselves. And so that’s something else I did want to mention that I know Dr. Nobel talks a lot about in his Project UnLonely book, which is just the acts of service piece is huge. And I know that’s a big piece of the culture of connection we’re trying to build here at NAU. And so I would say for Res Life people, even engaging in programmatic endeavors around how to engage residents in that and students around those kind of ideas, I think can be really powerful.

Crystal Lay:
Yes, I feel good when I’m helping others. And so I’m glad that you added that piece on there because there’s a need first to serve, definitely a need, and to be a part of helping other folks is really powerful. So thank you.
Well, this has been really powerful. I learned a lot. I know our viewers and listeners will learn a lot as well, and I didn’t even anticipate that part about the self-check-in. That is one of the biggest takeaways I’m going to have, is how do I check in with myself and why I’m feeling that way, and what are some ways that I could feel differently, reinvigorated and energized as I think about this connection piece, this culture of connection that you kept talking about. So thank you for spending time with me.

Carl Dindo:
Absolutely.

Crystal Lay:
So everyone, thanks for listening today. If you have a question or a topic or a person you would like us to talk to, please reach out to us at Roompact. Thank you for tuning in today with our guests talking about loneliness, and please take care.