In this episode of Roompact’s ResEdChat, Crystal sits down with Sarah Leahy, Associate Director of Campus Life for Residence Life and Housing at Dickinson College to discuss breaking unhealthy professional norms, creating more human-centered work environments, establishing healthy boundaries, and helping emerging professionals build confidence, self-advocacy skills, and sustainable approaches to leadership.
Guest: Sarah E. Leahy (she/her), Associate Director of Campus Life for Residence Life and Housing at Dickinson College, Treasurer for MACUHO (Mid-Atlantic Association of College and University Housing Officers)
Host: Crystal Lay
Listen to the Podcast:
Watch the Video:
Show Notes:
- Extreme Ownership, Jocko Willink and Leaf Babin
- Atlas of the Heart, Brene Brown
- The Bee and the Acorn, Paula Wallace
- A Crown That Lasts, Demi Tebow
- Pleasing People, Lou Priolo
- Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, John Mark Comer
Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast is a platform to showcase people doing great work and talk about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. If you have a topic idea for an episode, let us know!
Transcript:
Crystal Lay:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Roompact’s ResEdChat Podcast where we highlight cool people who do cool things in residence life and college student housing. I’m your host, Crystal Lay. I use the she/her series pronouns.
Today, we’re going to talk a little bit about confidence, a little bit about boundaries, a little bit about generational curses in the field, and so we’re really getting into how do we make sure that our entry-level professionals feel like they can advocate for themselves, they feel supported and welcomed and valued in the work that they do in residence life. And so I found the perfect guest, I think, to talk about these pieces, and I actually was able to find them through a Facebook post in one of our Res Life groups that we have there where they provided some really amazing insight, and I thought, “I really need to meet this human and learn more.” And so I was so pleased when they said yes to being a guest so you also could benefit from the wisdom and tips that they are going to share with us today.
I’m going to stop talking and let our guests introduce themselves.
Sarah E. Leahy:
Hello, everyone. My name is Sarah Leahy. I am the associate director of Campus Life for Residence Life & Housing at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I also have the privilege of being the treasurer of MACUHO this year. So if you’re in the MACUHO region, make sure that you check us out on Facebook, Instagram, all the things. And then our conference is this fall in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I’m super excited to talk to Crystal as well about what it’s like to be a first-year entry-level professional and the way that supervisors really impact the experience that entry-level professionals have. So looking forward to our chat.
Crystal Lay:
Yes, thank you, and thanks for your service to the region. I think that’s such a really cool way to give back and do our work in housing.
So I want to get started with my first question. I do really wanted to ask you this. So entry-level housing professionals often face, I think, intense expectations and pressure, and so what are some barriers in your opinion that make it harder for new professionals to learn and grow in their roles?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah, it’s a great one. So what I have experienced with first-year entry-level professionals or just entry-level professionals in general is that there is this underlying pressure that goes with the role whether to be better, to be like somebody else that is in a similar role, or try to take on role requirements of mid-level maybe a little too early. So one of the great pieces of advice that was given to me very early on in my career is that entry-level first-year experience is about just building your foundation. It’s not about proving yourself. It’s not about trying to be something bigger than you are. And sometimes we get trapped in that.
I would imagine probably anybody that watches this will say that they’ve heard somebody tell them like, “What is your higher ed timeline?” or, “Are you on the timeline or out of it?” My timeline wasn’t the traditional timeline. So I’m a little older in the field. When I started at grad school, I was four years post-undergrad. And it’s okay for things to look different, it’s just a matter of making sure that you acknowledge that yours is different and normal is just a setting on a dryer, that’s what my grandma used to tell me, and so you just decide what that looks like, so stop the comparison, be okay to be in a space of failure, and know that there are people to support you through that process because it’s all just about learning and development.
Crystal Lay:
Yeah. I think in this field, and maybe other fields too, I can speak to housing, I feel like when we’re running this race, we’re always looking left and right, and it’s like, “How do you know the path ahead of you and what you’re doing if you’re always looking left and right and doing that comparison thing?” So I really appreciate that. There’s also a quote that says, “Comparison is a thief of joy,” so thanks for… And then your grandma’s quote, I’m like, “I think I’m going to start using that.”
So when I reached out to you, and I referenced this in the intro, about being a guest, you talked about this idea of generational curses in the field. I’ve heard that applies to family pieces or dynamics, but I never thought about it in our work as housing professionals. So tell me what does generational curses mean to you or look like when we talk about housing in residence life and our leadership as well?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah, absolutely. A little bit about my background, I come from a Christian household, and my parents very diligently broke some generational curses in the generations below them and have those receipts to prove what existed pre the work that they did and now my siblings and I and the grandkids that have come after.
And something that I have felt a lot is that there is this old regime in res life and housing and this new, and for some reason, there isn’t a willingness for a bridge to exist there unless there are those mid-level individuals or people that are in between the old and the new that are just saying no. And something that really hit when you asked me this question is that not every tradition deserves to be a legacy, and I think we get stuck in that. Everybody that has existed wants a way to be a legacy and to have their name be on a curriculum or in the way that housing is divided up on a campus. And sometimes what was is not what needs to be. That’s what I’m talking about, the curses is like I suffered, therefore you have to suffer.
I think about pay scale a lot. My first job, I was making $12,000 a year in res life and housing. If I would continue to be like, “Well, I had to suffer through this, so I’m not going to worry about making sure that your salary gets raised, that you have a living wage,” we get trapped in that a lot, and so I am making a diligent effort to not be that. And when I’m in spaces where those types of things are brought up, I’m often the person asking why or making people uncomfortable with the questions that I’m asking because I’m willing to voice it for the generations below me that are coming in because I want the field to sustain, and I want people to view residence life and housing as a final destination and not just a bridge to the next career. And that can’t happen if people in the field continue to be selfish and hold onto the things that were instead of looking to the future.
Crystal Lay:
Yeah. When I came up in housing, there were more lifers. This was a destination, right?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Mm-hmm.
Crystal Lay:
“This is what I’m going to do for 30, 40 years. I’m going to retire from housing,” and I feel like that’s less of the norm or the typical experience anymore. It feels like a pass-through. It’s something to do to get to the next thing or something to try out. And so that sentiment really resonated with me. I think also when we have times where it’s the, “Oh, well, this is better than what I had, so I don’t understand why folks are complaining,” I’ve heard that too, Sarah. And so it’s really about knowing our team and implementing processes that make sense for the group, and they’re also sustainable. I can’t change everything based on what’s happening in this moment. We want to have things that are lasting and also how do we not get stuck in this is what we’ve been doing and not leaving room for new and different and maybe sometimes better.
That’s sticking with me because, again, this idea of we’ve always done it this way, you still hear that. And I wonder about for you… It’s very brave to create discomfort in our field, right?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Mm-hmm.
Crystal Lay:
It can be really scary, and so tell me a little bit about that internal voice or dialogue you do. How do you know or create that safety in speaking up in the moment? Does that question make sense?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah, absolutely. I didn’t become a part of this field to get a Girl Scout sash. I’m not here to collect badges of honor. In all of that, it’s like I don’t want to experience burnout. I don’t want to be in the space of negativity. I want to find joy. I want to be at peace. One of the other pieces that we’re going to get on is work-life harmony versus balance. I am not here to prove to others that I have more value. I just want to do my best. I talked about my faith earlier. I truly believe that God has put me in this field and I am here for a reason, and I’m just trusting through the hard. So even in the hard, I have spaces where it’s like, “Okay, God, what do I need to learn?” It’s not about me and who I am in the moment. It’s, in this experience, how can I grow and how can I positively impact the people around me?
And if there is somebody in the space that is feeling the same way, I always think like, “If I asked the question, somebody else in the space probably has the same question, and they’re just not at a space professionally where they might think that they can ask the question.” So being brave in the moment and asking is a visual representation of what somebody else could do when they’re in a similar situation and I’m not in the room.
Crystal Lay:
I love it, advocacy and allyship, right?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Mm-hmm.
Crystal Lay:
Those are pieces there. And also, the faith piece and an anchor, you have something that drives you, and that is what helps you figure out, how am I going to show up today? What’s my responsibility to myself and the others in this space? And I think that’s really, really powerful. Thank you.
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
So I think this tips us over into talking a little bit about boundaries. I see a clear connection. How do you protect yourself? How do you name what your needs are? So I think that many entry-level professionals and then sometimes more seasoned humans struggle with boundaries, Sarah. And so why do you think boundaries are so difficult in residential life or residence life? And then how can supervisors better support staff in setting boundaries?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah. I think oftentimes the people who don’t have boundaries are the people who are rewarded. So the person who’s staying late, the person who’s coming in on the weekends, even though there’s not a reason to be in on the weekends, those are the people that are being nominated for awards, winning awards, being nominated for things, and just getting the gold star for the thing that maybe should not be the rewarded piece. So boundaries don’t limit our impact, they allow us to sustain it, right?
Sarah E. Leahy:
So if we don’t have it, that is what leads to burnout and exhaustion. And then when you decide, “Okay, I need to figure out how to have a gate,” it allows you to just breathe and exhale versus always thinking, “Oh, what’s next? What can I do? Where do I need to be? Who do I need to impress?” It allows you to be present in who you are and focus on, “Okay, what do I want to do today that isn’t connected to work?” Wellness can’t exist if a supervisor isn’t willing to demonstrate it. So something that my staff knows is I don’t require their email to be on their cell phones. We are in an age where the ding happens, and there’s an expectation that as soon as that email comes in from a student, no matter what time it is, you should be responding. I don’t live in that space. Sure, there are things that are important, but that’s what the on-call staff is for. And so if somebody else needs to be pulled in, somebody else will be pulled in.
I don’t live in a space where I know that I won’t be contacted if I’m on vacation, but that’s a possibility. But we have laid the groundwork to make sure that there is somebody available, so why worry about it? When I go on vacation, I’m not thinking about who’s on call or what’s happening. It’s me with my husband, us doing our thing. And then if I need to be called on, I’m there and able to do it.
Crystal Lay:
We are speaking the same language because, let me tell you right now, I’m going to say it on this conversation with you, my work email is not on my phone. It’s not. Now, the role that I have, I am on call 24/7, 365. I knew that when I took the job. And that means I train my staff so well that they only need to call me if one of five things happen. And so what are the things that you put in place to make sure that you can have wellness?
When I got to work this morning, I sat in my car for 10 minutes, Sarah, and I listened to my two little songs and I sang in my car. I was like, “I hope nobody see me just in here singing in my car,” and I was like, “I’m just going to take a moment to settle myself and be present before all the noise filters in.” And that was between dropping off my boys to school, sit in my car, and then get ready for the day. And so I think even whether it’s 10 minutes, it’s an hour, blocking off your lunch, not having email on your phone, those are some really beautiful ways to say, “I can’t pour from an empty cup, and so what are the things we’re doing to refill?”
So, now, I think… I live off. We have professionals who live on. And so when you’re talking about the boundary pieces, we have our staff who live on, and sometimes I think they stay deeply connected to their communities. You referenced this, right? A student needs me right now. How do you think staff can move from chasing work-life balance to actually building work-life harmony?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah. Again, this was not something that I came up with. Somebody in my past has shared this with me and just resonated me till this day. So harmony recognizes seasons where balance is that there’s equal distribution to all areas of your life at all times. That is not physically possible, right?
Crystal Lay:
Mm-hmm.
Sarah E. Leahy:
So when you think of what the word balance actually means, you think about the Lady Justice scales, it’s even and it can’t be. So think about the big seasons in residence life and housing, move-in, staff selection, housing selection. It has to be heavier in those seasons, and your home life has to be a little bit smaller. But outside of those really heavy seasons, it can tilt the opposite way where your home life can be more of a priority. You can take more vacation time. You can dig into the things that you enjoy in your own development. You can’t have work life if you don’t have the life. And so something over the past, I would say, year and a half that I have done since I’ve lived in Carlisle is just really get invested into the local community. My husband and I still live on. Thankfully, we’re in a house and not inside of a residence hall now, but we’re still very close to the action. I walk to work every day, so it’s not like I am removed.
So one of the things I did was I applied for a leadership course through our local borough, and so I was the person that was selected for Leadership Cumberland to represent Dickinson. It was like 100-plus hours of leadership training. But in my time there, I have learned that almost every county, at least in Pennsylvania, has something similar, and it has allowed me to get connected to 50-plus professionals that are not in higher education, and so I’m learning leadership skills and development from people that have a different perspective where oftentimes we’re only learning from people in our field. And sometimes that can be more negative-associated versus joy-filling pieces.
I also started volunteering with my church, and then also volunteering with MACUHO, of course, so finding ways to make connections with people that aren’t the people that I work with every day. Because if you’re only interacting with the people that you work with, and I think entry levels tend to do this a lot, you are then trapped in the narrative of, “The woe is me. I live on. I can’t get away from this,” and when you’re going to hang out, you’re only talking about work. So finding the life outside of work is the first place to start.
Crystal Lay:
Yes. And so I’ve also heard the term work-life integration.
Sarah E. Leahy:
Mm-hmm.
Crystal Lay:
And so I love that you have all these different pieces. You’re like, “Okay, I have work, and I have this connection to the community, and that helps establish roots.” And then you’re like, “My faith is important. Church is important to me, so now the volunteer and service pieces.” So it creates this more holistic experience because we’re whole people. We’re not just these worker bees that are showing up and then not trying to connect. And so I wonder, as an employer, what is our responsibility to model and encourage this work-life integration or wellness pieces? But also, are there opportunities for us to introduce our teams to, “Here are some community things,” or, “Did you know?” Because I think that would be really neat to do too. You have my wheels turning as we think about onboarding and going into new seasons when we bring in our teams.
When we talked prior, you also talked about creating humanized spaces. So we’re on a thread here. And so what does that look like in the workspace? Because you talked about outside of work. When you work in a residence life environment, how do we bring the humanity to our day-to-day work and environments?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah. I think a big piece is just recognizing that professional staff are not machines. I think in res life and housing, you get caught in this like, “Oh, they can do more, they can do more. It’s not a big deal. They’ll be capable of it.” And I’m not saying that people are not capable of it, I’m just saying that they shouldn’t have to be, right?
Crystal Lay:
Mm-hmm.
Sarah E. Leahy:
People don’t become human after work. They are human during work too, and remembering that. One of the big pieces, I think if any of my staff watch this or anybody that I’ve ever supervised watches this, they would probably say this, but I remind people to take lunch. So here at Dickinson, we get an hour for lunch, and if you don’t take it, the school is then… You are paying money back to the school, right?
Crystal Lay:
Mm-hmm.
Sarah E. Leahy:
So take your hour. You should not be scheduling work meetings over lunch. And if a work meeting is scheduled over lunch, then you leave an hour early or come in an hour late the next day. That is the small piece.
Another piece is reminding people to go to the doctor or just use their sick days for mental health days. There are more than a number of days that I have taken a sick day and gone to the movies because I just needed to be alone. I needed my brain to just be fully in the dark where I am able to zone out on whatever movie I’m watching and not have to think about whatever the emergency is that’s happening, because there’s somebody to take care of it, right?
Crystal Lay:
Mm-hmm.
Sarah E. Leahy:
So just, yeah, remembering that the human that is the employee is the priority, not the position title. The position title will be filled by anybody, but you want that human to know that they have value and worth, whether they’re working for you or moved on to another position.
Crystal Lay:
Yeah, the work will be there.
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
And I like how you said you’re a human 24/7. I transitioned from using the word people to using human more often than not, because I think it lands differently when you look at folks and it also draws you or draws me back to this word of humanity and our ability or desire to live these full and whole lives. And I don’t want to be an employer or a colleague who people are questioning their ability to have a healthy and well life or someone who has to choose between their kids’ birthday party and this training. And sometimes there’s moments, operational need, but how are we adding to someone versus taking away?
This is some good stuff. I told y’all, Sarah was going to say some good stuff.
So now I want to go into confidence and self-advocacy, because I think now we’re getting to the I piece of this. So I think that confidence can play a big role when you’re advocating for yourself or you’re advocating for your team, you’re an associate director and so throwing some of that sage wisdom in there. How can entry-level professionals start building confidence when they negotiate or self-advocacy, or also, if you’re talking to another supervisor? So kind of a two-part question here. So how can entry-level professionals advocate? But then also supervisor to supervisor, how can we help encourage that?
Does that question make sense, Sarah?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yep, absolutely.
Crystal Lay:
Okay.
Sarah E. Leahy:
A little background on me. So I was a gymnast for 14-plus years of my life, so falling into confidence was something that I had to figure out quickly because nothing will challenge your confidence than standing on a four-inch bean that’s four feet in the air.
So I have taken that type of mentality into a lot of who I am. I have been told by people that they’re intimidated by the way that I walk into a space, but it all comes back to being a gymnast and learning how to stand properly and how to make a presence even when you were terrified. You have to just put on this fake improv persona sometimes, and that’s okay. And so I don’t believe that you either have it or you don’t. I think it is something that is learned. And so yes, I learned it younger in my life, but you can learn it by either witnessing other people show their confidence or taking the time to develop it on your own. And so one of the things that I think is significant is confidence is not a prerequisite to advocacy. Advocacy often is how confidence develops, which means that the supervisor has to be able to provide space for the staff to figure that out.
So it can start really small with maybe it’s a staff meeting and creating a space for people to have the freedom and flexibility to ask a question that’s maybe not the right question, the psychological safety that’s tied into that, and not degrading that. I have been in more than one spaces where I’ve asked a question, and you could tell right away that the person was upset that you asked the question. And so figuring out yourself as a supervisor how you’re going to respond when the question catches you off-guard… Because it might not feel good and you might not have the answer, but figuring out how to make sure that that doesn’t destroy the confidence of that person to trust themselves to ask another question. You are the make or break of that person’s advocacy for themselves in those spaces.
So starting small, allowing people to ask clarifying questions, even going as far as advocating for a staff member to be in an all-college committee, getting into spaces that they wouldn’t have walked into on their own. Even at the regional level, we often do shoulder tapping for people to be on our leadership board and trusting that the person that shoulder tapped you sees something in you that maybe you don’t. And it is the step that’s like, “Although you might not be confident, we have confidence in you, and we trust that you’re going to do a good job.” And so believing the person that is reaching out to you, they’re not lying, they are not trying to fill their own cup, they want to make sure that you feel great in the space that you’re in.
Crystal Lay:
Isn’t it something to know that someone believes in you? That’s what I’m hearing. Or when your supervisor says, “Good job,” or they give you enough information where something signals of like, “Oh, I should probably do this thing again because my supervisor trusts me.”
So I wonder when you’re a new employee, how do you make allowance for or build in time for the relationship to build? Because you have to build that too. You’re hired for the job, we know you can do it, and there is this window of building trust. So I guess what I’m trying to get at is that confidence and trust might not be automatic. You have to build that. And so if you can control your confidence and know that the more you demonstrate competence and you are confident, that trust can build and you’ll hear more of those good jobs. That’s what’s in my head now of if you’re brand new and you’re not hearing some of that right now, like you’re brand new to a role, that will come with time because maybe… It’s like you have to earn that. Do you have any thoughts about that? How do you stay confident when you’re just starting, when maybe you’re expecting that within the first 90 days, and that might not happen?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah, I still think a lot of it falls onto the supervisor. Even in the way that I interview people… So our campus is a really big campus, a lot of walking. We’re in the middle of a town, so we can’t drive from point A to point B. So whenever we’re interviewing people, I send out an expectations list of the day so that they aren’t caught off-guard, and so I say like, “Bring a change of clothes for our tour. I don’t need you to be in business suit that you spent $500 on or in high heels and being really uncomfortable for the remainder of the day. Come into this space and know that we want you to be comfortable as you are learning who we are.”
And there are a lot of times that’s not the case. And as live-on professionals, you don’t even often get to see or have an idea of where you’re living. You just have to trust that where you’re living is going to be good. And I would say probably 7 out of 10 times, it’s usually an older space, hasn’t been taken care of, and you just have to be like, “Okay, well, I accepted this job, and I’ll try to make it work.” But if the supervisor puts in the work to provide the space for the person to be the human that they are like, “Remember when you were going through it, was it hard? Try to make it easier,” and normalizing mistakes through it all… Yes, there might be something that goes wrong, but allow that person to just be the person and have the conversation behind a door that isn’t public.
Something small that I started doing this year, I actually saw a random video on Instagram or something like that where it was an adult that had a flashback to when they were a kid and you got the gold stars on a sticker chart when you did all the good things. And they were like, “Who decided that you should stop that after you’re out of elementary school?” And so I don’t have stickers, but when I see people doing good work or doing things that are the small things that inspire confidence, I hand out gold star pins. You can get them really cheap on Amazon, if anybody wants to pick up the effort too, but it’s like a badge of honor.
I don’t just do it on campus. If I’m out to eat and the waitress has done a really great job, I’ll be like, “Hey, here’s a gold star. You did really great. I just want to acknowledge the work that you’re doing. What you do is not easy and just know that you’re seen, and congratulations on being great,” bringing the joy and the humor and the love back into what we do instead of it being this competition environment. Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
So I’m hearing you say, as supervisors, we shouldn’t wait for someone to earn a thank you or a good job or a gold star from us. We should be prepared and planning that. It should be a part of who we are is to recognize and take note of, from day one, these efforts that folks are putting in. And I hear you loud and clear. I think that’s the charge, because I think sometimes we do wait like, “Oh, you completed this project. That was two months long. Great job.” But in that two-month period, what were we doing to help maintain and recognize all of the effort that that person’s making along the way? I think that can make the difference. Like you said, to be noticed really could be powerful. This is good stuff.
So if someone wants to learn more about the things you’ve been talking about, the confidence, the boundaries, you also referenced faith, the generational curses, where would you recommend folks could look for any resources and tools if they’re like, “This was great, I want to know more”? Where would they look?
Sarah E. Leahy:
Yeah, so I’ll share a few verbally, and then I’ll send you a list to add in later. But one of the ones that is really significant to me was passed down to me whenever I was an RA at Shippensburg University, and it was from my supervisor, Tiffany Conde, who was in Housing, in Res Life, but now works professionally for eRezLife, the housing software platform, and she taught me about the Trouble Tree, which is… this is all about boundaries. So the story is about a person who’s working who had all of this bad stuff happen to him, and he stopped before he went into his home and hung his troubles up on a tree. And then when he walked into his house, you would never have known that he had a hard day at work. It’s a really profound, really short parable, I guess, but it’s about hanging your burdens up and remembering that God will take care of them overnight. And then when you exit the next morning, they probably won’t be as big. And that’s where I started learning boundary setting.
I don’t even remember what was happening in my time as an RA as to why that story was brought up in a one-on-one, but that would have happened probably in 2011 or 2012, and it has resonated with me, and I’ve told it to very many people who have been in my circle of influence. So that’s where I would start with boundaries.
And then some books that I’ll just mention quickly that have had really profound impact on my life are Extreme Ownership. That book is written by two Navy SEALs and gives really great life lessons on how simplicity is more important than crazy detailed information. If you make it simple, people will know how to attack the mission. Atlas of the Heart by Brene Brown is a huge one. I would say that’s my dictionary. I leave it on my desk in my office, and when somebody comes in and says, “I’m feeling X, Y, Z,” we flip the book open and say, “Oh, this is how you’re really feeling,” and it’s been really helpful.
And then a unique one that is one that I’ll mention is called The Bee and the Acorn. I had an honor of being ACUHO-I intern at Savannah College of Art and Design during my graduate years, and the author of that book is the president of the school. And she just had a dream, and her and her parents built the school from the ground up. So it’s really cool to see. She’s still currently the president, but her and her parents started by renovating one building in Savannah and have changed that entire community into this really art-forward thriving metropolis. And oftentimes I think we think of higher ed as like, “Oh, people started in the 1800s and are still going.” That’s not the case for Savannah College of Art and Design, and it’s cool to see you can have a dream even now, and in 10 years big things can happen.
There are other resources that I sent to you too, things that are on my want to read list as well, but that’s what I have.
Crystal Lay:
This is good stuff. Thank you. We will go ahead and get those added to the show notes.
Sarah, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and spending time with us today.
Sarah E. Leahy:
Thank you so much for allowing me to be here. It’s been an honor.
Crystal Lay:
Yes. And thank you, everyone, for listening or watching, however you’re viewing this or connecting with this. If you have an idea of a topic or a guest that you would like for us to have on here, please reach out to Roompact. We will be thrilled to connect. Thank you again, and take care.
