ResEdChat Ep 75: Reflecting on the ACPA Presidency with Heather Shea

Dustin Ramsdell:
Welcome back everyone to Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast. If you’re new to the show, every other week, we are featuring a variety of topics of interest to hired professionals who work in and with university housing, residence life, residence education, whatever you might call it. All are welcome here. We are graced by the presence of greatness, recent president of ACPA and a very prolific podcaster. We’re going to talk all about all of that with our guest today. Heather, if you want to introduce yourself and give a little brief professional background because I feel like I do that in just a bit, but I’ve known of you for a very long time. You do amazing work and especially now, just love that you’re podcasting and doing a bunch of cool stuff. So I guess summarize it as best you can. If you want to just introduce yourself to our audience, give a brief overview of your professional background.

Heather Shea:
Well, thank you so much, Dustin. I am so grateful for the opportunity to be on the ResEdChat podcast and it’s going to be such a fun conversation. I’m Heather Shea, she/her pronouns. I work at Michigan State University, which is on the lands of the Three Fires Confederacy. There I work as the director of an office advancing women and gender equity. I’ve joked that I always defined myself as a student affairs generalist, but recently went through and started counting up the years. I’m like, ah, spent almost more than half of my career doing women and gender equity work. So turns out I might be a bit of a specialist in that particular area. And I’ve been working in student affairs and higher education, DEI spaces since 2000 when I graduated with my master’s degree from Colorado State University. So that’s a little bit, I’m sure we’ll get into the much broader scope of all the intricacies in between there and here. But yeah, that’s kind of the overview.

Dustin Ramsdell:
And I think that is part of the folks who really have committed for the long haul, especially within whatever their area of specialization stuff. So it’s just, if it is residence education, you might think of a particular person or folks who have really made that commitment. So I think that’s really great. And I know part of just the nature of your work and wanting, I think to talk about things that matter and talk about people’s stories and uplift them and bring in diverse voices and all that. You are one of the collaborators. I know there’s a group of folks that are all working together to do the Student Affairs NOW podcast, and if you just want to talk about that, what the sort of genesis of it was and just, I guess, the elevator pitch of it. If folks aren’t aware, they should definitely go check it out, but if you want to compel them towards it, what do y’all talk about or what do you, I guess, specifically talk about? Because I feel like you all have different tracks when you’re like other co-host and stuff, which is really cool.

Heather Shea:
Yeah, no, we definitely do. So the genesis of Student Affairs NOW actually started with a different podcast, Student Affairs Live, which is, I think Hire Ed Live is still a network on there. I don’t know. They’re doing other things. They went off the air for a while and at the time it was October 2020. So what were we all doing? Maybe not the novelty of the pandemic had kind of worn off a little or maybe we were just like, okay, what else can we do? How can we bring some free professional development opportunities to folks who work in student affairs and higher ed and those who work adjacent? I mean, I think the scope has really been those who work in, around and alongside student affairs and higher education.
But my good friend Keith Edwards and I were colleagues, good friends, actually cohort mates at Colorado State University in our master’s program. So some people know that, others don’t, but both Glenn, Susana, Keith and I, the original four, were all Colorado State SAHE alums. So when we, Keith and I stayed in touch over the years, we were like, wouldn’t it be cool to do our own podcast? And as we kind of started thinking through logistics, we started like, okay, we really want a faculty member. What about Susana? We really want somebody who’s just interestingly curious about being a practitioner at a director level, and so we brought in Glenn. And so since then we’ve added two additional hosts and the podcast Student Affairs NOW has reached over 200 episodes at this point.
My focus is kind of all over the place, but I’d say if there was a through line, it probably is in the space of diversity, equity, inclusion, gender equity work, leadership development, social change, that’s probably what I tend to focus on. I also did a series on how to identify whether or not student affairs is the right career for you and then how to find a master’s program. And that was really specifically because I was having a lot of conversations with undergraduates on my campus about what was the nature of this field and how do you find yourself in it? And of course during that kind of told my own origin story of how I found Student Affairs, which I think is always kind of… So maybe that’s our next question. I can unpack that a little bit more.
Student Affairs NOW has been really a labor of love. It’s a passion project. Keith and I and the other co-hosts, we all meet weekly to talk and plan and think about what we want to explore. We have no shortage of ideas. We have way more topics than we ever will get to, but some of the most incredible conversations with people both in as well as book authors outside of higher ed. It’s been a lot of fun, so have no plans to stop doing it at any point.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Onward to the next 200 episodes. I mean I love that. The consistency, the variety and all of that I think is really important. And that just original hypothesis or the genesis of the idea of providing free professional development to people, that was the idea of my original show that I also have no intention of stopping higher ed geek. That’s led to other amazing cool opportunities to continue working with folks as a content creator and everything because I do just really firmly believe exactly that point. So it’s just like, okay, well, let’s have this show over here that’s way more niche focused of residence education. Let’s have other ones that are just bringing different perspectives on higher ed writ large or student affairs specifically. It’s a fun world to play in and I think it does help to just have, for me, this diverse diet of shows in my feed that I maybe just cherry-pick episodes where it’s like, oh, that’s really interesting to me and all that, but it’s like it’s all synthesizing together to inform my perspective of what’s going on and how we’re sort of approaching today’s challenges and everything.
But again, I guess doubling down on your career and commitment to this work and contributing to it through Hired Live and a variety of things that you’ve been involved with and everything. You were recently the president of ACPA, this sort of guiding organization for the entire field. I feel like this is kind of a funny question or way to frame it. I guess it depends on where you put the emphasis. When I was talking to people about having this interview, it was like that idea of how did you become a ACPA president? And I say that less so of how did you become ACPA president? It’s like how? The emphasis is on the how, because I’m curious how something like that works of, did you approach it, did they approach you? What is the whole, I guess, evaluation process of actually being confirmed? As quickly I guess as you can kind of summarize how all of that works, how did it happen?

Heather Shea:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, first I’ll just say it was truly the professional bucket list honor of my career to be in that role for the year. I’m still past president and still have a role on our leadership council for this remaining year. So Rachel Aho, current ACPA president is doing amazing work. If you haven’t already interviewed her, she’s a housing person, so I think she would be perfect for this podcast. But actually my connection to ACPA goes way back to grad school. My master’s advisor, Paul Chong, was really instrumental in my initial getting connected to ACPA because he invited me to present with him at a conference. And so it was my second year of my master’s program. Paul had been really involved in ACPA throughout his career leading up, and so invited me to present. And then ever since then, Paul and I would have kind of this annual dinner, and he started really early on saying, “Well, when you’re ACPA president…” Oh, and by the way, Paul also past president. So he served from 2002 to 2003.
And so we would have this annual dinner and he’d be like, “Well, when you’re ACPA president… When you’re ACPA president…” And sometimes we’re a really interesting field in that we have a lot of folks who almost need to have their shoulder tapped multiple times to see themselves moving into that type of role. I was probably primed in the, because Paul saw something in me, I was excited about the opportunity, but then life happens. I moved multiple times. I had two kids. I got through a variety of different career transitions, came to Michigan State to work on my PhD and really at that point, kind of took a break from professional association involvement. I had served on a convention planning team, and I had been on the governing board as the director of membership development, but was like, okay, I need to focus on my specific academic pursuit at this point in time, which was getting my doctorate.
And it was as I was on my way finishing that, I got a call about leading the NextGen Institute. So NextGen is an ACPA institute that’s focused on bringing undergraduate students into the field. And so this also relates, of course, to that other topic that I just mentioned about the podcast. But how do we as a profession both introduce the field to students but also help professional association involvement kind of align with that? So I had the opportunity to co-chair NextGen for two years with a really good friend of mine, Richie Stevens, and it was right after that that I kind of got the nomination to apply to be considered by the nominations and elections committee, and I turned it down actually the first time because I was still kind of in this like, do I really have the time to do this? Do I have the energy?
I just started my current position and the next year when it came around, I was like, okay, I’ll put in my application. But I had this crisis of confidence actually at the very last minute, and Chris Moody, the executive director of ACPA, will attest to the story. The day that the applications were due, I texted Chris, we’re good friends, and I said, “Hey, Chris, you’re about to get my application for director of professional development.” And he’s like, “Wait, what?” He’s like, “Can you Zoom for a minute?” And so he’s like, “Heather, we talked about you applying.” So I was like, “Okay, I’ll put it in for both of the two positions. You all can make the choice.” And so I was really at that point kind of thinking, is this something? Could I really be of service? And then when I was elected, just really excited to jump into the role. The unique opportunity to be president of an association, it’s a once in a lifetime kind of chance.

Dustin Ramsdell:
I guess that’s really interesting, that idea of, I appreciate you sharing authentically that emotional journey you went on to get there because I think it could be, knowing, I guess, we all have egos or ambitions or whatever, that idea of that shoulder tap finally comes and you are almost just like, yes, finally, I’ve been waiting for this moment. And the idea that you might be like, I don’t know, maybe not right now, and it’s like that’s incredible to have that sort of self-awareness of I respect this enough. I don’t want to be able to commit to it fully or not just have this be like… Because it could be, I guess in the sense of like you said, oh, this was sort of a bucket list item. Some people could just view it as that, as like, well, I just want that check mark, that sort of thing that I can brag about or whatever, but they don’t have the time or the full understanding of what that responsibility fully entails.
So it might be like they kind of fumble through it or it’s kind of stressful and whatever that, I guess part of, I guess maybe your calculation was what you were talking about of like, well, I want to finish my PhD. I just got this position I want to settle in. So I guess kudos to you for recognizing that, being patient, because I guess there’d be that anxiety of like, well, if I say no, is the opportunity ever going to come back? They’re going to be like, “Well, she doesn’t want to do it. She turned us down,” or whatever. That’s really great. We’re recording this April 2024. So you’re in the past president position. You have turned that page on that chapter of actually being in the presidency. So what are some reflections or highlights or just cool things maybe that you got to do I guess from this past year?

Heather Shea:
I mean, I think the very top of the list is the fact that ACPA is in the middle of celebrating its 100th anniversary. So 2024 ACPA was established, founded in 1924 by nine women who came together at the invitation of another association to build a space that was inclusive and collaborative, and that association then later turned into ACPA. So being able to tell that story alongside the work that I do within gender equity spaces is really kind of cool. And then the 100th anniversary in and of itself. So our convention in Chicago in March was at the same place where ACPA was founded, and just returning to Chicago was such an incredible opportunity. We had a big party, it was open to everybody. There was no ticket fee that people had to pay to get in, and then we’re going to be having another celebration on ACPA Day in October, which is the official sign, the charter kind of day.
So I’d say that’s probably the biggest highlight of the year. We also, there’s some behind the scenes stuff that happened in the association that is really evident to folks who are involved in ACPA and who are engaged in leadership roles but maybe isn’t as prominent to the larger field. And that is that we went through a major governance transformation. So we completely remade our leadership council. It was a governing board. It’s now a leadership council for modern folks, because they might be like, “Okay, what is the really big difference?” What we really did was we widened opportunities for folks to get involved and created a whole slew of additional roles, which really aligns with ACPAs values of inclusion and leadership that’s more dispersed.
So that was a huge lift in and of itself. So you’re transitioning not just writing. So as vice president, I got to work on the bylaws revision, which people are like, “Woo, that sounds really exciting, working on the bylaws revision.” So working on the bylaws revision, that passed, and then at the convention in March, we switched over to this new model. So we are now kind of living into that, but being a part of both shaping the celebration of the 100th as well as shaping the leadership of the association moving forward was really exciting.
I mean, this was certainly also a really challenging year for higher ed. I mean, especially in DEI spaces. So I wouldn’t say this is a highlight, but I think an important part of what we were able to contribute was to build community spaces around support for those colleagues who are in states where DEI is under attack. So that was the focus of my presidential symposium with ASH. We brought in colleagues from [inaudible 00:17:40] and some state organizations to think together about how we can support folks who are working in states where DEI is really at risk of and actually is being completely closed and defunded and offices and people losing jobs and that kind of thing. So those are some of the things that I’d say kind of rise to the top of the list. And then just working alongside an incredible group of leaders who are all committed to seeing the best and transforming and boldly moving this association and this profession forward.

Dustin Ramsdell:
I get the impression that anybody who steps into some sort of leadership position with a professional organization like ACPA, I feel like you have to have some inherent optimism. You feel as though there is a benefit for people coming together, thinking and collaborating and all of that, just that the power of that community is important and you want to work to make it better and all that. I mean, it is an incredible opportunity to be helping to ring in the 100th anniversary and everything and celebrate that. And then, like you said, it is unfortunate that these things are happening, but it is that you’re grateful to have the opportunity to stand with this organization, sort of bring its collective weight to be in response to the moment. Because it could be like, well, we’re these high-minded academics or whatever. We’re just going to talk about whatever we want to talk about. It’s like, no, we’re here.
And I think that idea of we are every year in a lot of different ways throughout the entire year, trying to be responsive to what’s happening and have those conversations that folks can get something out of. So I think that is something, I mean for any of these communities and stuff, the better ones I think are trying to be adaptive to those things that are happening. And like you said, higher ed has no shortage of challenges. So the idea of, I think it could be tough… At this point I guess it’s like which challenge are we going to focus on? Are we going to talk about affordability or this, that, the other thing?
And it’s like ACPA, I think, is a pretty big tent. There is room for everybody, but I think very important, and I’m glad that it seems like it was destiny or whatever you might call it, that you were in the position to be like, you know what? We’re going to be talking about this. This is really important. It’s a very impactful thing for the profession because I feel like maybe the affordability stuff, it’s like, yes, important. I don’t know what we’re necessarily going to do about it. We could be like, college should be more affordable. And it’s like that’s up to presidents of colleges and university. It’s kind of boards of trustees or whatever else. So I think it’s really great that you were able to give that a lot of space, give that a lot of emphasis and focus and-

Heather Shea:
I’ll say one other thing about that actually before you move to the next thing. When I was thinking about what I wanted to say, one of the things that the president gets to do is give a presidential address at the moment that they take the gavel. So that actually happened for me in New Orleans last year. And so I was thinking a little bit about what I wanted to say, and I’d been working on this speech, and I kind of started off thinking like, oh, well, what would sound presidential and what would sound like this is a momentous occasion for our association and that kind of thing. And then I was like, okay, none of that is really me, that’s not Heather.
And so I kind of went back to this, what is the message that I want our field to be considering at this moment in time? And I stumbled upon, actually, this is totally credit to Keith because Keith and I have this ongoing back and forth, and he shared with me a reference to a book that was about fostering critical hope. And there’s actually two different scholars who have written on this pretty extensively. We featured both of them actually. Keith got to do a podcast with them, so lucky him. But when I stumbled upon the concept, I was like, okay, this is the rallying cry. This is the focus for our field at this moment, because I’ve always been an optimist, but I’ve always been a realist optimist, the type of person who recognizes the challenges that we’re facing as a field and also sees value in us doing the work anyway.
So fostering critical hope for me is doing that equity analysis, recognizing that sometimes you have to approach it not from a naive place of everything’s going to be fine and we’re all going to be happy in the end. It’s like, no, things are not good at this moment. But I have critical hope that as we come together across the field, we can do hard things. And so sometimes that message, I think, and my hope is that not just the message, but that that really brought people together of like, okay, this is a time when a lot of people are leaving higher ed. This is a time when a lot of folks are maybe feeling like, is the work that I’m doing, does it really matter? And how can we regain that sense of this is purposeful and important work? That’s one other thing I wanted to add was the focus on critical hope has been a key message of the presidency. But also, I think since then I’m like, okay, let’s keep going.

Dustin Ramsdell:
I’ll have to definitely put that book in the show notes because I think that puts a finer point on it, like bold, circles, underlines that idea of we have to have optimism, but strategic optimism. You could kind of start to flesh out that sort of concept of, well, it needs to be based in realism, sort of interface and acknowledge what is happening around us, but also have that motivation and the hope to be able to address those challenges, make things better, and bring people together to do that. Because I think it’s like we create many of our own problems, so that means we can also fix them. And I think that acknowledgement that you made too is that that sort of blind optimism in the sense of just being unaware or not acknowledging the problem. Because I think that’s what people have remarked a lot now is sort of the culture of higher ed that has gotten us to this point where you’re seeing institutions closing, maybe several a month at this point.
There’s this common refrain or impression that people get is that sort of like, well, it’ll all work out in the end. It always has. I don’t know. It’s that idea that you’re sort of letting go of responsibility and all these sort of things because it’s like, well, we’ve always been here, so I assume we’ll always continue to be here. But to me it’s almost just have some humility in the sense of none of these institutions deserve to exist. Only so much as public institutions for sure have these sort of mandates from their states and whatever else. There’s kind of a point, in a sense, to them existing, but then a lot of the institutions that you’re seeing close are these private liberal arts institutions or smaller ones or whatever else. It’s like they think that it’s all just going to work out, but I think it only will work out when folks come together to make it so.
I guess we’ll have our final question after this, but just reflecting on, as you did, 100 years of ACPA, a lot has changed in that time. How do you see the organization’s role in the field right now in moving forward? Because I guess it is that idea of one part of it is cultivating that critical hope and everything. How do you see, I guess, moving forward an organization like ACPA helping to continue to be of support?

Heather Shea:
ACPA’s tagline is Boldly Transforming Higher Education. And I think throughout their 100-year history, they have stepped into those conversations with a lot of, not only hopefulness, but strategy around what we can do. And so the strategic imperative for racial justice and decolonization is an example of the way that when we have looked at the pressure points that are facing the field, there are some really specific things that can be done. And I think ACPA has focused on building those resources for professionals, for faculty, for aligning the scholarship with the practice, and then advocating for the policies. So alongside other higher ed associations, how can we collectively together through our membership in some of the Washington D.C. collectives advocate for the type of change that we want to see? And so ACPA is really at the forefront of that, always considering the governmental policy components. And we have in our new governance structure, a whole section of our leadership council that’s focused on that, which I think will be a really important next kind of phase.
So we’ve been thinking right now in April, there are what, 60 different campuses that have encampments protests happening, and ACPA is putting together resources and supports for folks who work in student affairs in higher ed in supporting students and supporting students’ free speech and expression. And so I think it’s that practical application, prioritizing student success, student wellbeing, student support, and then I think we’ll kind of continue to innovate and lead. We also know that our field is evolving as we have generational shifts and changes, and we have more, I’m Gen X, but more millennials moving into leadership roles. I think the type of organization of there is a flattened structure and there is a place for everyone to get involved and connected has been one of the things that I’ve really appreciated from the moment that I first arrived back at ACPA after that one year where I was invited to present, I got involved.
And so I think ACPA will continue to find ways to be a member-driven association. We have an incredible international office staff, but it’s a smaller staff because volunteer leadership is so fundamental to our work as an association moving forward. So I think it’s going to a really exciting next 100 years. There’s so many different things on the horizon that I think as we consider just the shifting of the nature of our work, the way that hybrid professional development opportunities have evolved, our doubling down in things like the residential curriculum and the institute for the curricular approach, all of that I think has really set ACPA up for being successful for the foreseeable future.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Well, it’s interesting to hear just the different things that you all are working on to be responsive again to just the very, I guess it’s sort of the idea of, well, these 60 institutions are doing all this stuff, but that is something that’s rippling out to all institutions. We do want to acknowledge and be responsive to that and all that. And even just sort of the leadership hierarchy of where you’re deploying folks and the volunteers and different things, that also being responsive because I think I do imagine the next several years will be heavily informed by federal policy changes and different… So I think that is a smart move to double down on. Obviously the headquarters is in D.C. It’s like, well, let’s keep empowering that work and trying to be a strong advocacy organization and everything.
We’ll wrap up. I guess just given all that we have discussed, your ACPA presidency, sort of helping to shepherd the field through these tumultuous times and the podcast and all the conversations you have and everything. Want to just wrap it up with just what advice would you give to other higher ed leaders right now? Part of it is sort of the hope, the optimism, the being realist and getting your hands dirty and doing the work and trying to make things better. So if you want to elaborate more on that or just other advice that you would have for higher ed leaders right now.

Heather Shea:
I’ve spent a lot of time in addition to thinking about critical hope, also thinking about the sustainability of our field and what we need to do to make it so that this is a profession and a field and a vocation that people want to stay in. Because I’ve seen in my career, amazing colleagues jumping outside of traditional higher ed and some of those adjacent roles are really vital to our continued work. And also on my campus, we’re losing folks who I think have a lot to give.
And so for me, some of the advice I would have is really kind of recognize that giving people who are already good at their job more work may not be ultimately sustainable. And how do we make sure our institutions are supporting whole people, not just those who have endless amounts of time to give. I mean, I have two kids. I have a first year student at the University of Michigan, a high school student as well, and my life is full in addition to my job. And so I think that kind of cultivation of environments that are human-centric, they’re designed with human interface in mind. We’re not here making widgets. We’re engaging and staff who are effective in their roles are also whole people, and they will be better for serving students if we can take care of them.
That’s probably the big thing that I’ve been thinking about, not just regarding the field broadly, but in my own role on my own campus and the staff that I get the opportunity to work alongside is that grace and also ability to have empathy. I don’t say resilience, like we all just need to have grit and double down on the work, but there has got to be equity in our work in terms of the amount of effort that we’re expected to give from time to time. It is also, I will say Tuesday after finals week on our campus and graduation was just this past weekend. So I think our collective campus is doing a bit of a deep breath and a deep sigh. I know other campuses are still in the middle of winding up their time.
I actually have this incredible opportunity to go abroad in a couple of weeks. I take a group of undergraduate students to Europe for three weeks, and so that also has been really interesting to me. So sometimes my other piece of advice is getting outside of the US context and seeing how higher education and student affairs functions in other places of the world. That’s been really instrumental in me thinking about how are we supporting students and what are students’ motivations for coming to American colleges and universities. They get incredible privilege of being able to go away for four years and live, whereas a lot of campuses are very much centered around the community. And so, one, I get a lot of energy from being with the college students on my campus, but I think we collectively learn a lot through our engagement with our colleagues who are in the Netherlands and Belgium and Germany and France, which is where I will be in the month of May. That’s kind of what I would say as a wrap up.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Amazing. That sounds like a great trip. I mean, just those opportunities for just really intensive or deep interactions with the students and the examination of higher ed and other context is certainly helpful. And I think it’s even just the idea of, well, we don’t all have to take three-week sojourns out to Europe to do that. I think it’s the idea of professional communities like ACPA or whatever scratches your itch. It’s like a lot of them are obviously bringing in people from all over the world, whether they work and live somewhere else or maybe just have a connection. It could be like, yeah, try to get out there and talk with folks about their experiences in higher ed, maybe as a student somewhere else in the world, maybe they did study abroad or whatever it might be.
But that is definitely good advice, and I think that idea of building organizational cultures in higher ed to be more supportive because it’s hard times and if we can make our employees, our staff, our faculties’ lives easier as colleges and universities, I think that provides more of that sort of resiliency versus just the grit and bear it and deal with it and just push forward. It’s like that has been the notion, it’s just do the work and it’s just overwhelming and it’s stressful and you’re getting burnt out or whatever. It’s like, well, if you give that grace, give that space, give maybe opportunities to expand your horizons or whatever else, try to thread that needle of giving people what they need, when they need it, how they need it, and that would, I think, just help with the sustainability of the field because we need a lot of good people doing the work, and it does take leadership of these institutions to recognize the value of what those folks are contributing and being just more supportive with all the compensation, benefits, perks, and all the above.

Heather Shea:
Yeah, and I’m super grateful. I mean, I would not be able to do this without the support of my supervisor and larger team because it is a lift on their end, and also it contributes, right? So there’s this mutual piece here. But it is definitely not lost on me that not everybody has an opportunity. But also people are like, “Oh, three weeks vacation in Europe.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no.” Spending three weeks with 18 to 22-year-old students, 18 of them, it’s a deep dive into what student culture is today, and also kind of getting the opportunity to learn alongside them and learn from them. I was not a Snapchat user, for example, until I went on my first study abroad with students and I was like, wait a second. I really need to know how to use this more effectively. So now I’m on Snapchat.

Dustin Ramsdell:
It’s surprising how durable Snapchat has been. I guess it’s just a weird little ending footnote here is the idea of something like ACPA has been around for 100 years and Snapchat’s been around longer than I ever thought it would be. If you build something that people appreciate, it’ll stick around. But that’s something I forget too. It’s like conferences, it’s sort of the same way of like, “Oh, cool. You get to go on a vacation to,” wherever the conference is being held. One, it’s like, well, it shouldn’t be. But then two, I forget that the people organizing it, is like, “Oh, you’re working,” because I’m like, “Oh, hey, cool event. Love what you’re doing,” whatever. And I’m just chit-chatting with them. It’s like, “Oh, yeah, you’re trying to organize all this. This is your work.” This for me is sort of a, it is fun, but this sort of professional learning experience, whether it’s you being the person doing it or whatever sort of perceptions that people have to deal with of like, oh yeah, vacation.
Good luck with organizing all of that and keeping everybody together. I mean, it is one of those things where it’s like, yeah, you wouldn’t be able to do that without supportive leadership, and I’m glad that you are getting that opportunity and glad that you are one of those supportive leaders helping to lead the field and appreciate you doing the podcast and everything else that you do. We’ll have ways to connect with you and what we talked about in the description for the episode here. But just thanks for hanging out and thanks for sharing all you did.

Heather Shea:
Of course. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much.