ResEdChat Ep 110: How to Use Pod Mapping to Amplify Your Curricular Approach

Dustin Ramsdell:
Welcome back everyone to Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast. If you’re new to the show, every episode, our team of hosts brings you timely discussions on a variety of topics of interest to higher professionals who work and with university housing, residence life, residential education, et cetera, et cetera. But obviously just talking about all those different areas, whatever the titles might be, very much grounded in the curricular approach. So we’ve been doing a lot of episodes, examining a lot of different facets of the curricular approach. And this year’s season, this episode is no different. We’re talking about pod mapping as it relates to [inaudible 00:00:43].
But before we get to all that, Sarah, if you want to briefly introduce yourself and your professional background and how you get to be where you are today.

Sarah Rodgers:
I am currently an associate director of Residence Life at the University of North Texas. And I actually have a lot of longevity at UNT. I started like most people in Residence Life as a student staff member, involved student here at UNT actually, and spent some time here, got my master’s. Even during my master’s, I actually stepped away from housing for a moment to do orientation work, but got pulled back in, became a hall director as you do. That was actually my first time being introduced to the curricular approach because I went to our… It was in Residential Curricular Institute at Virginia Tech. That was before it was the Institute on Curricular Approach, back in 2014. And it made sense. So that was something that I really took with me.
I left UNT for some time. I went to the University of Texas at Dallas. And I actually developed their curriculum, started it from scratch and really brought what I had learned from that previous curricular institute. And that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed my time there. They have a very unique student population. I was also over their apartment area, which we don’t have apartments here at UNT, and so learned a lot there.
That whole time, I was commuting. So it’s about an hour away from here. And I saw an opportunity to come back to UNT, continue what I love. There was all new leadership here when I did come back after about five years at UTD. And so I came back in 2020. We all know how that worked out. And so then recently, probably… Well after 2020, we started looking into redeveloping the curriculum here at UNT. So while I was gone, they had implemented a curriculum and we wanted to see with a changing student population with all the changes in higher education, what kind of things we needed to do to review it, redevelop it. And so that’s the process that we went through most recently. And then this is our implementation year. You have to launch it… What is it? Is it 60 or 40%? I always say 60%. You launch at 60%. So that’s where we’re at right now.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah. So I appreciate hearing all your history personally with this work and with the work happening at UNT in particular. I mean, these episodes I think are really helpful as we’re sort of approaching the curricular approach in a way of looking at the tactics that people are using to build, sustain, and improve upon their curricular approaches at their various institutions, which have all their own unique origin stories and reasons for being and all that. And then certainly their unique institutional context that they are living in, living initiatives and efforts that are ever evolving and all that.
So with all of that in mind, our conversation here is focused on, like I said, the pod mapping project that you used, you implemented to be in service of your curricular approach. So just to start as the base level here, just explain what the pod mapping project was that you implemented at UNT.

Sarah Rodgers:
Yes. So first and foremost, it’s a tool. And it’s a tool to identify… The way that we utilized it was to identify our campus partners, key stakeholders that we could collaborate with to really make our curriculum work. So there are a lot of different ways though to use pod mapping. So backing up just a little bit, I’m going to share a resource. I meant to send it to you before. I’m going to share a resource with you to include in the show notes where this can be linked because I definitely want to give credit where credit is due.
Pod mapping actually comes from transformative justice work. So the pod map worksheets and things we actually found from Seoul. And the way that it’s used in transformative justice work is that it is a tool to address how you would create a network of support individually, individually create a network of support in case you experience a crisis, experience harm, violence. And so you identify what needs, what help you might want in that type of situation, and then you create your support network through a pod map.
So that’s an individual way to do it. And in fact, we did this individually with the RAs. So if they experienced a really difficult on-call situation, put your name in the middle, the situation is difficult. On-call situation that was maybe brought up triggers, things of that nature. And what does your support network look like? Who can you call upon, identify what you’ll do in that situation if you experience that, right? So we did that first. And then we realized that we could use it on more of a organizational scale as well. And when you’re looking at it, for us, we put our educational priority in the middle. So what do we want students to learn at UNT? And then what’s the support network for that learning?
And so we were able to even get… You can stay broad with it, so an educational priority would be pretty broad in identifying what areas can help us get there. Some of that’s going to be within your department. So for us in a lot of Residence Life programs, you’re going to have certain strategies already in place. So what strategies are going to help you meet the educational priority? What are the other programs, like if you have living learning communities or faculty and residents? And how are they involved in that educational priority? So it helps you visualize. I think I liked it really as a great visual for all these different things that create that network of support for our curriculum.
So really it starts as an individual thing and it’s how do you create your own support network. But then when you put it on organizational scale, it’s how do you create your support network for your curriculum. We were able to do that. It was really important to us when we were developing it that we realized that we are not a silo in Residence Life. The students have an entire experience here at UNT. And so there’s a lot of different departments, stakeholders that they interact with, that they’re already a part of. And so what are ways that we can incorporate that into the curriculum, incorporate things that make sense for UNT students.
The first way, the first person that we really identified… Well, one of our new learning goals this time around was career readiness. And that was something that really came from UNT, had a real big push. So during our archaeological dig, we identified that that was going to be something very important for our students in our institution. And our career center was a… Like that makes sense to make them a partner. And so we actually invited them to come to the institute on curricular approach to see it from their point of view and then invited them to be a part of that process as we built the new curriculum.
They helped us create some strategies. There are ways that we have looked at some strategies and we’re like, “Hey, how can we incorporate your office? What are things that you’re already doing?” They do a ton of networking events. And so we were like, “Well, that makes sense. Can we do some networking in the residence halls?” So that was an easy one.
But there were others, right? One of our learning goals is independence, and there’s a lot of components to that. I think that one was the one where we found a lot of different campus partners. And so student money management is an area just like financial aid and student accounting because students need help navigating that. And that is a big independent step. Different areas like that.
And so with that, we found that we also have a high… I meant to say this earlier, we have a high first gen population, 40% of our students. And we are a Hispanic serving institution and a minority serving institution. And with our first generation students, navigating college life is a big part of that. And so that was something that we recognized as we were developing our curriculum that we need to make sure that we’re serving these students. And so a lot of our educational priority and our learning goals really are geared to helping our first generation students and making sure that they… We have our first year live on requirement. So during their first year here, what are things that we can make sure that they are successful?

Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah, I appreciate just certainly the resource that you mentioned, just to give people some kind of tangible things to look at and reference. And then just certainly the examples of what are the ways that you have pod mapped some things that maybe might feel like a little bit.
I guess I want to say sort of incongruous or maybe or just not sort of expected or likely partners in the work that you’re doing to support fostering more independence in your residential students. It’s like, “Well, financial stuff is a component of that. And I mean obviously a big component of finances for a college student in particular is their financial aid and scholarships and grants and understanding all of that and understanding the resources that are available to them. And then just certainly everything else that comes with finances.” Because for me too, I think it’s the idea of what you’re saying, a lot of people do work across the board of mapping out visually student life cycle stuff.
And that’s everywhere from when initially they do a request for [inaudible 00:11:39] form to when they graduate in our alumni. And this is almost like double tapping, zooming in, getting closer on like, “Okay, you are currently a student, you’re living in the residence halls. What does that experience look like? Let’s visualize that and do it with a very intentional eye towards your partners on campus that can be helpful and that work, but also are likely very vested in supporting student experiences and career field or otherwise.”
So yeah, I think it’s a very natural extension of work that I think a lot of folks either have been involved in or are familiar with. Again, it’s tools to do that where other folks might kind of haphazardly go through trying to map things out or whatever, trying to organize things. So I guess just to put it in your own words a bit more, because I think folks maybe are able to discern it a bit from what you said, but what makes this work in particular, the pod mapping and service of developing, sustaining, and improving curricular approach, what makes that so important for the success of a curricular approach at an institution?

Sarah Rodgers:
Yeah, I think that what I really saw… There’s two parts of the curricular approach that stand out. And one is engaging key stakeholders in the process, in the review process and making sure that you allow stakeholders to review your curriculum. One thing that I truly believe is that we can’t, in residence life, we can’t be all things to students. And sometimes we feel like we have to be, right?
But we already have campus partners who are doing this work and they’re the experts in what they’re doing. I really like to say over and over again to my staff members like, “Utilize the experts. They’re the experts in health promotion. They’re the experts in outdoor pursuits if we have in our rec center.” How can we make sure that we’re making an integrated experience for our students? Because they’re not just living on campus. They are going to the rec center, they’re participating in these things. They’re having a full experience, and so what are ways that we can make sure that that’s fully integrated and that we’re not trying to be, as residence life, everything to all students? Because I think when you try to do that, you’re not doing it well, right.
And so I think that with the review process specifically, we’ve allowed a lot of other eyes on the curriculum that maybe wouldn’t necessarily have been on it previously. And so it’s given us a broader perspective of what is happening. A lot of times we know exactly what we do in our department, in our day-to-day, and it can be hard to know what ODA does, the Office of Disability Access. It can be hard to know what someone’s doing their day-to-to-day. And involving them in this review, they’re able to give us that perspective. And so that has been really beneficial to seeing more of an integrated curricular approach.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah. And I mean, I think it’s the idea of not just giving lip service to those sort of things. Like, literally mapping it out, making those connections and maybe having that realization of like, “Oh my gosh. Yeah, this campus partner needs to be more involved because I think they’re going to be really impactful there. We haven’t really built that relationship or how are we going to refer students there?” or anything else.
But I imagine, just to segue to my next question, what of the challenges might be, okay, you map all this out, you’re making the explicit connections of, with this outcome, this campus partners should be really involved, of those kind of communication barriers or handoff moments or different things. Those transition moments could be sort of a challenge. I don’t know if you want to elaborate on that, if that’s something that you have a perspective on. Or just anything else of the challenges that you’ve faced to do this pod mapping and maybe also to use what you created to then create more positive outcomes for your students.

Sarah Rodgers:
Yeah, so one thing I was thinking of is that I also… Obviously when you’re approaching campus partners and stakeholders in general, I think that you need to make sure that it’s beneficial. You know what I mean? And so approaching them and saying like, “Hey, here’s how I can see that the work that you do is really important to our student experience.” I think that’s a helpful way to approach it, right? And, “Here’s a visual. When we looked at that, we want this for our students, we identified your work that you do in your department as one of the most important things that our students experience here. So how can we make sure that we’re helping you with your work as well?” So that’s one of the things I think that helps with that.
But for challenges, I think in general when you’re working with people across campus, they’re keeping them engaged in the process. So it can be… I think we had an easy time keeping them engaged right away from, like I said, we had about five additional people attend the institute from different departments. And that was an easy… We kept them engaged because we kept meeting. But then people leave inevitably. I mean, it’s been quite a few of the people who were big champions and had attended the institute who’ve gone on to different opportunities. And so then you need to bring other people in but maybe they didn’t go to the institute, they may have very little understanding. And so that’s something that I think if we could go to each department and do a little mini institute or even just presentation on what this is so that they have a little bit more understanding and everybody does, from all of the different leadership down, I think that would be helpful. But yeah, I think that just maintaining the engagement is really a challenge.

Dustin Ramsdell:
And I think that sort of sentiment comes up with a lot of things. I mean, even just I’m thinking in the sense of organizations, how they operate, is like, do not rest on your laurels of like, “Well, we covered that already.” You sort of feel like it’s one and done, we did it, and that’s good enough. For something like this, I think, yeah, it’s something that bears repeating certainly when there are new people, because I think it could be the idea of embedding something in standard onboarding for all team members, but then also that idea of, like you’re saying, the mini ICA sort of idea of like, “Okay, something more substantive, something that allows discussion, dialogue, all of that.” Because I think the buy-in, I guess, for the things that I was think of like, “Oh, if there’s communication barriers,” those are things that are very solvable and they’re made more easily solvable, I think, when you have somebody who’s bought in, who understands, who sees their place in the work and everything.
And I think even just kind of inferring from what you’re saying, like, flattery going a long way maybe where it’s just like, “Hey man, you’re really important when it comes to achieving this outcome. I really need you” and all that kind of stuff, because I think the perception and gathering too, from what you’re saying, is like, if you’re approaching someone that does not have the buy-in, doesn’t understand, doesn’t get it, they might be thinking that you’re saying like, “Hey, here’s more work. I need you to do extra, Something that’s not really directly core to your day to day or something.” So it’s like you want to try to anticipate that, frame it the right way, and try to build those relationships, build the understanding whether in advance or sort of in tandem as they’re understanding why the curricular approach is important, what are your institutions’ particular outcomes and things.
So yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s interesting because I think a lot of this is… We’ve had some conversations on the podcast here about the change management part of all of this. Again, there are very tactical pieces of how are we trying to foster learning? What are ways that we are trying to reach out, engage our students and track and assess learning and all that. But even just sort of holistically approaching something like this, it’s somewhat complex or complex enough or nuanced enough to where I think it does take that deliberate kind of TLC to guide someone into it and sustain the work, sustain the relationships and partnerships and things.

Sarah Rodgers:
Yeah. I think the buy-in and the relationships, I think of course it was not easy, but inviting people to institute and they got to come and see, that was a big investment. And it also showed that we were invested in working with them too. But you have to maintain that relationship and maintain it with check-ins, maintain it informally, just as much as inviting them to meetings.
I know it’s easier said than done a lot of times. There are all sorts of dynamics when you’re talking about campus partners, departments, and stakeholders. And I think that that’s something that everybody has to figure out how you’re going to navigate on your campus. But really I think how you build those relationships really makes a difference and how you’re able to do your work.
And I mean, one thing, I… We’re not competing. That’s something that I try to tell staff, especially some junior staff or whatever, like, “We’re not in a competition here. We’re all here for the same reason. And that’s to provide the best residential experience, to have a great first year for our students, to get them engaged, retained, all of the things.” And so we’re not in competition. And I think reminding folks that we’re really here to work together. And yeah, I think you made a good point about, “I’m not asking you to do more work, I promise.” Maybe if you have someone who can sit on a committee, you have someone who has the capacity to sit on our curriculum committee. But outside of that, I’m not asking you to do more. I want to see how we can partner with what you’re already doing, what we can partner with, and make sure that our students are getting to experience those things. So that has been important for the process, for sure.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Well, and I think people sometimes get used to pushing against the grain because I think the idea would be various offices would be like, “How can we reach students? Why don’t they know about it?” Or whatever else. And it’s like certainly having a strong partnership with the Residence Life or Residential Education team would be a way to really have… Because I guess what I’m thinking of is like your point of not competing with one another, but sometimes you can unintentionally compete if the programming is counter programming and competing in that way, or if there’s just presumptions about things of like, “Oh, well, I thought that you did this in orientation or whatever.”
I’m just thinking those ideas of when you bring people together, you have these conversations, you have those opportunities to alleviate blind spots or presumptions and assumptions or things like that and make sure that you’re putting in the investment, planting the seeds to make sure everybody feels like they’re on the same team, they’re working together. That’s a valuable use of their time and focus and energy. Because I think if you get stuck in a rut, it can feel as though it is you’re asking me to do something extra, but it’s like, this should have been the way that maybe you were doing it from the beginning. So we’re really just trying to pivot and adjust and kind of reform. It’s not sort of an extra add-on kind of thing, but…

Sarah Rodgers:
Yeah. Thinking about the blind spots, that kind of thing is I don’t always know what other people are doing and they don’t know what we’re doing. And so the more that we can open up and be transparent about what we’re both doing, we have a better idea of the things that the students are experiencing. And I think a lot of times we assume we know, right? And I think it was not that long ago, the reason I thought of ODA earlier is we’ve been doing roommate success plans over here in Res Life for, I don’t know, probably eight years or more.
And not that long ago, I had someone reach out to me from the office of disability, and they were like, “Is there some sort of agreement that the residents make together for room type guidelines?” And I’m like, “Absolutely. Here is what we have in place.” And I sent them all of the documents that we have related to that, and they were like, “Oh, this is great.” I meet with students all the time who come to me and say they have an issue. And the students, while we might think they would come to us for housing related things, they are going to talk about housing related things with ODA. They might talk about housing-related concerns with the first gen office. And so how can we make sure that they know what we’re doing so that they can direct them correctly or refer them and they know to say, “Oh, have you done a roommate success plan? If you’re talking about roommate issues, I know of this tool that your RA has probably already brought up to you.”
So I think looking at what everybody’s doing and having a good idea that we are all doing really valuable work just to make sure our students are successful and have the best experience possible.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That’s a good example because I think most people are trying to deal with the symptom of like, “Oh, I’ve got this nagging thing, whatever.” But then at the core of it could be like, “Oh wait, hold on. This might go back to you’re uncomfortable in your living situation with your roommate in the residence hall, which causes you to do something else, which is creating an issue. Then you’re coming to me about it.” And it could be like, “Well, why aren’t you comfortable in your room? You end up sitting out in the lounge all the time or doing this or that, the other thing.”
So yeah, I mean that idea of that clarity into something like a roommate agreement, what does that look like? What does that cover? And just having colleagues having that visibility is a good example, I think, of what this can achieve on sort of what feels like a very base level, but assuming that everybody understands that roofing contracts even exist and what they include and how does one fill one out.
So I think, yeah, obviously building upon acknowledging some of the challenges and change management piece and everything, and you mentioned obviously sharing helpful resource earlier. Any other final thoughts, advice, resources, things that you want to direct folks to as we’re wrapping up this episode to keep their learning going, keep doing their homework on this topic?

Sarah Rodgers:
Yeah. So definitely I’ll share the resource I talked about earlier so that they can go take a look at, a pod map worksheet. I think that it is something that you can use individually. I think that’s a great tool. We all experience a lot of things in our roles that can be difficult. And so knowing ahead of time what your support network is going to look like during those situations is important. And I think especially our student staff don’t necessarily think of that. And so guiding them through that process to create that support network for themselves.
And then on the greater scale, it is all about creating a network of support. Because in our case, we have a residential curriculum, but what I really consider is our residential experience. And that doesn’t just stop in the residence halls. And so the network of support goes beyond all the great things that we do in Residence Life. And there are people, partners, departments that can be a part of your network to make your curriculum that much more fabulous. So that’s, I guess, my final piece of advice there.

Dustin Ramsdell:
Always love to end on an inspiring note and give folks some of that motivational energy to keep moving this work forward and just have some good additional tools and things to be at their disposal. So I just really appreciate you, your work here, and willingness to share it out and make yourself available here because I think, again, I think I’ve been really proud, I think of just, again, all the sort of technical pieces of really examining a little bit deeper the curricular approach. And I mean, for somebody like me, again, I feel like I’ve been coming in a little bit as kind of a lay person here. It’s helpful for my learning of all the important components that go into building a really strong sustainable curricular approach and everything. So just appreciate you and appreciate your time here.

Sarah Rodgers:
Yeah. Thank you for inviting me.